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  • The West Block – Episode 23, Season 12 – National | Globalnews.ca

    THE WEST BLOCK

    Episode 23, Season 12

    Sunday, February 26, 2023

    Host: Mercedes Stephenson

    Guests:

    Kenny Chiu, Former Conservative MP

    Dick Fadden, Former CSIS Director

    Anita Anand, Defence Minister

    Location:

    Ottawa, ON

    Mercedes Stephenson: Explosive allegations about how and who China used to interfere in Canada’s federal elections. Is it time for a public inquiry?

    I’m Mercedes Stephenson. Welcome to The West Block.

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    Intelligence leaks are raising questions. Was the Prime Minister’s Office warned about a Liberal MP and a Liberal fundraiser who sources say CSIS was watching?

    Canada is sending more military aid to Ukraine as the country marks one year since Russia’s invasion. But is the government doing enough to boost the capabilities of the Canadian Armed Forces here at home? We’ll ask the minister.

    Intelligence sources allege that a sitting Liberal member of parliament is a witting affiliate of the Chinese government’s attempts to interfere in Canadian elections. It’s the latest bombshell in a series of top secret leaks, renewing concerns over interference in Canada’s democracy and elections in 2019 and 2021.

    Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says foreign interference is a real threat, but dismissed some of the criticisms as partisan. He also called the intelligence leaks inaccurate.

    Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: “Foreign countries are trying to undermine people’s confidence in our democracies and destabilize those democracies. And when we lean in on partisanship around this, we’re actually helping them in doing their work of sowing confusion and mistrust.”

    Mercedes Stephenson: Joining me now to talk about this is Global News investigative reporter Sam Cooper; former CSIS director and national security and intelligence advisor to the prime minister, Dick Fadden; and former Conservative MP Kenny Chiu. Thank you all for joining us.

    Sam, a really explosive story that you’ve broken here, alleging, you know, things that are remarkable about a sitting member of parliament, who by the way, vehemently denies that any of this is true. He says it’s all false. What are your sources telling you about this member of parliament? Who is it? And does the Prime Minister’s Office know.

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    Sam Cooper, Global News: We’ve reported that three weeks before the 2019 federal election, the prime minister’s top aides were warned by CSIS in a classified briefing that this candidate, Han Dan, was part of a Chinese foreign interference network. Furthermore, he was associated to another alleged suspect, Michael Chan, a former Ontario Liberal minister. So this is a very serious classified brief to the prime minister’s top aides, and CSIS was asking the Prime Minister’s Office to rescind Dan’s nomination, a very serious warning. They’re telling the prime minister essentially, you have a candidate that is working for China. The allegations, our sources say, is that Mr. Dan is a willing affiliate of this Chinese network that we’ve reported on interference in 2019 and 2021. So does the prime minister know what our sources say, is that the prime minister’s top aides were warned? They ignored the warning, allegedly. Mr. Dan won in 2019. He’s re-elected in 2021. Meanwhile, we have CSIS sourcing saying this is a concern and he’s not the only one.

    Mercedes Stephenson: Obviously that’s very concerning. I know Kenny to you a lot of this doesn’t come as a surprise. You have long alleged that the reason why you lost the election was due to Chinese interference in your riding. What was your experience with that?

    Kenny Chiu, Former Conservative MP: Well Mercedes, I just want to have a minor correction of what you said. I’ve been saying that the Chinese interference, it’s a contributing factor to my loss. Now it—you know, you can never decide whether there’s an exclusive reason or not. What I’ve experienced here locally is that within a very short period of time, less than two years. Supporters of mine all of a sudden turn… becomes very angry and emotional to me, personally. And they will shut the door behind… in front of my face and they would… used to plant lawn signs supporting me and they would tell me that they don’t even want to vote for me. And all the difference is just within 22 months of time and it’s all because of information that is being circulated among them in WeChat and also WhatsApp that somehow convince them that I’m anti-Chinese, that I’m a racist, that I’m anti-China.

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    Mercedes Stephenson: And why do you believe that those rumours and those untrue stories came from Beijing?  

    Kenny Chiu, Former Conservative MP: Well there are sanctioned articles that are being published in WeChat that we know only sanctioned information can be published… publicised in WeChat and get circulated there. And these… this information article, you know, would portray Conservatives as anti-Chinese, that Erin O’Toole, it’s going to ban, of all things, WeChat, that Kenny Chiu is going to put Canadians of Chinese descent into jeopardy, that they are risking $400 thousand penalty because of my private member bill to have a foreign interference registry created.

    Mercedes Stephenson: You know I want to go to you on this Dick because I get asked this question a lot by viewers, by people who are reading the articles. They want to know, is the government legitimate? Was the election affected on a grand scale? Do we know that information? Is there a way to find that out?  

    Dick Fadden, Former CSIS Director: Well I think to be practical about it; we have to admit that Chinese interference efforts in Canada are targeted. They’re not targeting every constituency in Canada. Everything that I’ve seen or read suggests that it’s less than two dozen, and they may or may not have been successful in influencing those two dozen, so all of the remainder of those numbers would have determined in the end, the final outcome. So I think fundamentally, the overall outcome, as the prime minister says, absolutely legitimate. Individual constituencies, different issue.  

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    Mercedes Stephenson: Sam, I think one of the questions has been why politicians have not been willing to do something about this, that the foreign agent’s registry is an example of that. It exists in other countries. It doesn’t exist here yet. The government is committed to sort of holding a public look into whether or not they should have one. What do your sources allege the holdup is on the government being willing to take action to stamp out—I mean as much as you can, it’s tough with China—but to take some actions to at least make it harder for foreign governments to interfere.

    Sam Cooper, Global News: I think two main points. One of them connects to what Kenny said about being attacked. Look, a major bombshell in our report from several days ago is that CSIS reporting, according to our sources, says that Michael Chan, a former member of parliament, legislature in Ontario, promised to attack critics of the Chinese regime and was a friend of the consulate. So if we see politicians getting targeted for any statement about China, it just raises huge questions about other politicians in Canada who may be tasked to attack them. Furthermore, what Canadian politician wants to go into an election with negative information about them. So could this explain why the Liberal government, or other governments, don’t want a registry? They don’t want to go into the next election facing the real concern that when they knock on doors, people will not be receptive because they will be called anti-Asian or racist. Of course, there’s fundraising issues that we believe…or that is, our sources say, Mr. Chan the subject of our story, is a huge fundraiser for the Liberal Party. Does it raise questions why they may not want to look too seriously at allegations against him?

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    Mercedes Stephenson: And Mr. Chan as well has denied these allegations. He says that they are uncatogorically untrue.

    Dick, Jean-Pierre Kingsley, former chief electoral commissioner for Canada has said that we probably need a public inquiry to look into this to determine whether or not it’s the case. As a former national security and intelligence advisor, do you think that a public inquiry is needed to sort this out and to get to the bottom or what we do and didn’t know and what happened?

    Dick Fadden, Former CSIS Director: Well I come to this conclusion somewhat reluctantly because there’s a history in Canada of a lot public inquiries that have gone nowhere. Having said that, a number of them have been very, very useful. I think in this case, the allegations are so serious they need to be looked into. So the question is: If you don’t do a public inquiry, who does it? I think the logical place would be parliament, but it has become so partisan that I think that this particular kind of topic would be almost impossible for them to look at objectively. So I think the public inquiry is really the route to go. It should be given a limited mandate so that they report, you know, well before the next election. There should be an inquiry under the Inquiries Act so that they can call, subpoena people and documents, if need be. And I can’t see any compelling reason not to do it in the public interest, except some partisan considerations that Sam has raised.

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    Mercedes Stephenson: And Kenny, I want to ask you about some of those partisan considerations because I’ve noticed a lot of Conservative sources publicly criticizing Justin Trudeau, but privately they seem a little bit concerned about talking about China as well now, too. Is this something that potentially affects both parties willingness to take action or to take bipartisan action, which would take the politics out of it, if both parties are on the same page? Then I’m not sure how China the same way favours one or the other. I’m really curious, your thoughts on that and how the Conservative Party and the opposition should deal with this.

    Kenny Chiu, Former Conservative MP: Well Mercedes, I think it’s probably not an exactly fair portrayed of the Conservative Party position on this because I mean, ever since Hussein [00:09:53 Shaalayo] and then Julia and Kevin Garratt’s, and the two Michaels, I mean the government… the current government have seen evidence after evidence that who we’re dealing with and yet, you know, after what the Conservatives have tried to push the government… the current government to establish… to renew a new strategy to do with China, they have since… ever since we pushed back on that, and they refuse to conduct and update our national strategy. Conservatives have spoken up a lot in the past. The problem, the matter of fact is, Canada, it’s in a dire situation not just to do with foreign interference. Yes, it’s of particular concern to us. It’s of particular concern to me. But we are facing a weakened economy. Many Canadians believe that we are not heading in the right directions. Many things are broken. So Conservatives are putting their priorities, many things that Canadians care about and one of them, certainly, is how to assert our sovereignty, how to protect ourselves, how to protect our democratic institute, elections, etc.

    Mercedes Stephenson: We just have a few seconds left, Dick, but what needs to change in the law?

    Dick Fadden, Former CSIS Director: Well I think we need the registry and I think we need to make it very clear that political parties have a responsibility for ensuring that the Canada Elections Act is complied with. I think it’s dangerous to have the government try and regulate this too directly: partisan activities, political activities. But if you have a law, a change in the Elections Act that says very clearly: political parties have an obligation to do a, b, c, d about the receipt of money, how it’s accountable for, probably increase the resources allocated to the chief electoral officer. But I think we need to recognize, though, that there’s no silver bullet. This is going to take some effort dealing with social media and some of the ethnic press is going to take time. But I think the first thing we need to do is to talk about this seriously. And given the general environment Canada, I don’t think it’s going to work unless we have a public inquiry.

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    Mercedes Stephenson: Well, certainly a remarkable story, Sam. It certainly seems the national security community is concerned and will continue to talk about this. Thank you to all three of you, for joining us today.

    Sam Cooper, Global News: Thank you.

    Dick Fadden, Former CSIS Director: My pleasure.

    Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, Defence Minister Anita Anand reflects on one year since the war in Ukraine and the spotlight that it shone on the state of the Canadian Armed Forces.

    [Break]

    Mercedes Stephenson: Canada is sending four more Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, bringing the total number of tanks that we will be sharing with the Ukrainians to eight.

    Since Russia’s invasion a year ago, Ottawa has committed $1 billion in military aid to Ukraine. The military spending comes at a time when the Canadian Armed Forces are being stretched to the limit here at home.

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    For more on this, I’m joined by Defence Minister Anita Anand. Welcome back, minister. Nice to see you.

    Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Hi Mercedes, great to be here with you.

    Mercedes Stephenson: Obviously, a very welcome announcement for Ukraine today. They’re receiving four more tanks. They have talked about the importance of that, but we’ve also heard about the constraints here at home. We only have 82 main battle tanks or had. That number is now down by eight, which means we’re contributing 10 per cent of the overall fleet. But I hear from military sources this is closer 20 per cent of Canada’s operational tanks that are going. Do you have any concerns about the Canadian military being able to train and do their jobs effectively when we are sending this much to the Ukrainians?

    Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Just to be clear, we are sending more Leopard 2A4 battle tanks. That’s in addition to the four that we have already sent, bringing our total to eight. We are also sending a recovery vehicle, which is a type of tow truck for tanks, as well as 5 thousand rounds of 155 mm ammunition, spare parts and training as well. So this is a second package for Ukraine relating to the Leopard 2A4 tanks and we are at the forefront with our allies in terms of countries that have tanks on the ground in Poland, training on those tanks to be sent to Ukraine.

    Now in terms of your question relating to the capitalisation of the Canadian Armed Forces, I am always concerned to make sure that the Canadian Armed Forces have what they need to serve and protect this incredible country. What that means is we’re going to be purchasing additional tanks for the Canadian Armed Forces. We are going to also undertake the defence policy update so that we can have an across the board look at what other capabilities the Canadian Armed Forces need. At the same time, we are increasing our defence spending by 70 per cent under strong, secure, engaged. We’re purchasing other capabilities such as the 88 F-35s and continuing to make sure that we do what is necessary to capitalize the Canadian Armed Forces. But certainly, it is a concern and Wayne Eyre and I are very much on top of it.

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    Mercedes Stephenson: What concrete steps has your government taken to start the contracts, for example, to replace these tanks? Is there a timeline? Have you initiated that process? I think that’s what a lot of the soldiers are anxious to hear reassurance on that it’s not just words but there’s actual steps being taken. Is that what’s happening?

    Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Well to begin, in my conversations relating to tanks, I, myself, want to be assured that we have capabilities for the Canadian Armed Forces. It’s important for them in terms of their training, in terms of their development to have these and other capabilities. We also want to make sure that we have the most innovative and modern solutions. So it’s not necessarily the case that the Leopard 2A4 tank is going to be the replacement vehicle. We have to make sure that we are recapitalizing with the most up to date technology that is interoperable with our allies as we have done in the past, as were doing with the F-35s.

    Mercedes Stephenson: So that sounds like it could be a while and I certainly understand the value of wanting to make sure you’re buying the right equipment, but it sounds then like contracts won’t be in place until after the defence policy review is completed and the government has had a chance to review it?

    Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Well I think, Mercedes, what you have to look at is the global supply chain for items like tanks, for items like heavy artillery, for items like ammunition. All things that we want to ensure we have capitalizing the Canadian Armed Forces, but all things that other countries are also looking for. So one of the reasons I have been reaching out and meeting with suppliers recently is to ensure Canada’s priority placement in the supply chain and to make sure that we are doing whatever is necessary from a domestic innovation perspective also, to build up Canadian industry at the same time as procuring rapidly. So we’re working very quickly in terms of the Canadian supply chain, in terms of international procurements, as well as capitalizing Ukraine with the equipment that it needs to fight and win this war. And I’ll tell you that that is also a priority that we should be thinking about seriously, Mercedes, on this one anniversary of the illegal and unjustifiable invasion of Ukraine by Vladimir Putin.

    Mercedes Stephenson: And obviously, the Ukrainians are an extremely urgent situation. They’re actually in a war right now and there’s the balance between supplying that and maintaining our own capabilities.

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    One question I wanted to ask you about in terms of things Ukraine has been asking for. We all know UABs have been a huge part of the war effort there in terms of reconnaissance and surveillance capabilities. Canada manufactured the cameras that were on some. I have here, three letters that were sent to you and your government by the Ukrainian government, including the minister of national defence, asking for a Canadian made drone, called the SkyRanger R70. And it is actually capable of doing things like picking up cell phone signals, which has helped identify Russian positions for strikes in the past, for example, or monitoring for things like chemical and biological agents that are in the air. It looks to me, based on the dates off these letters, like the Ukrainians have been asking for these for over a year. Will your government supply the Sky Ranger drones to Ukraine as they’ve been asking for?

    Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Well I like the question, Mercedes, because it does point to the fact that we have been in close conversation with the Ukrainian government about the equipment that it needs to fight and win this war. And indeed, I was in touch with Oleksii Reznikov today on the fact that we’re making an additional donation of four Leopard 2A4 tanks, to bring our total to eight.

    In terms of the specific item that you mentioned, the drones, of course, we are looking at whatever aid we can put on the table for Ukraine. That’s why we are listed as among the top five of contributors of military equipment to Ukraine by an independent panel that has looked at this issue. So by all means, we are keeping all options on the table. That is my role as defence minister and our very close relationship with Ukraine demands no less.

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    Mercedes Stephenson: One last question for you, minister. The last time I spoke to the chief of the defence staff on the show, a few weeks back, I asked him whether Canada’s military is ready for the challenges ahead. And I was kind of stunned when his answer was essentially one word: No. He went on to say that it would be a challenge for Canada to meet it’s NATO requirements if Russia were to expand the war into a country like Latvia or Lithuania, and that we would be very, very hard pressed to be able to respond to that. Do you share that analysis of the state of the Canadian Armed Forces?

    Anita Anand, Defence Minister: I actually think that what we need to keep doing is to ensure that we are procuring the capabilities that the Canadian Armed Forces need in the short and the long term. But I sleep at night, sometimes, knowing that the Canadian Armed Forces are doing whatever they can to protect and defend this country and that they are effective. Remember NORAD just few weeks ago, shooting down a suspected balloon over Central Yukon. That is NORAD doing what NORAD does: protecting and defending our skies. And Canadian Armed Forces members with their American counterparts have been working together side by side for 40 years in defending our country and defending our air space. And so I believe there’s more work to do, but I also believe that the Canadian Armed Forces are an extremely effective and dedicated organization and I, as minister, will do whatever is necessary to support the important work that they play in our country.

    Mercedes Stephenson: So, would that be a yes or no to sharing General Eyre’s assessment?

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    Anita Anand, Defence Minister: That is an ongoing commitment to making sure that the Canadian Armed Forces have what they need, to execute on their most serious and significant responsibility for our country. And as General Eyre himself said, we need to keep purchasing capabilities not only for use here at home, but as we move to brigade level in Latvia, to help defend NATO’s eastern flank, for example, we also need to capitalize to fulfill those obligations. So we have multiple obligations domestically and internationally, and my job is to make sure that we execute on those.

    Mercedes Stephenson: Not a yes or a no. Okay. Minister Anand, thank you so much for joining us today.

    Anita Anand, Defence Minister: Thank you so much, Mercedes. Take good care.

    Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, questions about what the government knew and when, when it comes to allegations of China’s election interference here in Canada and how that’s going to play out in the coming days.

    [Break]

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    Mercedes Stephenson: Now for one last thing, the Liberal government has come under increasing pressure on the China election interference file. Now a former CSIS director and a former chief electoral officer are calling for an independent inquiry.

    The prime minister and those around him have continued to dismiss media reports about the PMOs knowledge, including a refusal to acknowledge whether senior staff were briefed about a Liberal MP who was allegedly a witting associate of Beijing’s interference network.

    There has been little transparency other than politician say so that everything is fine. And with a minority government, we never know how far off the next election is.

    Until politicians on all sides are willing to put aside partisanship and get to the bottom of Beijing’s medalling, Canadians and the media will have serious questions.

    That’s our show for today. Thanks for hanging out with us, and we’ll see you next week.





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  • The West Block – Episode 22, Season 12 – National | Globalnews.ca

    THE WEST BLOCK

    Episode 22, Season 12

    Sunday, February 19, 2023

    Host: Mercedes Stephenson

    Guests:

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister

    Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister

    Location:

    Ottawa, ON

     

    Mercedes Stephenson: A country scarred by divisions after the pandemic and facing threats from abroad. How do we heal the nation and protect Canadians?

    I’m Mercedes Stephenson. Welcome to The West Block.

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    Out of the frying pan, into the fire: The Rouleau Commission finds the federal government was justified in invoking the Emergencies Act, but the Liberals are facing new questions about Chinese interference in Canada’s democracy.

    Plus, is Canada’s Arctic secure? Questions about holes in our defences loom after the Chinese spy balloon saga.

    A situation that spun out of control, that’s how Justice Paul Rouleau described what was happening during last winter’s convoy blockades. His report into the prime minister’s decision to invoke the Emergencies Act came out last Friday. Justice Rouleau said the government had met the threshold they needed to, but that the situation in and of itself was also a failure of federalism.

    Justice Paul Rouleau, Public Order Emergencies Act Commission: “Preparing for and responding to situations of threat and urgency in a federal system requires governments at all levels, and those who lead them, to rise above politics and collaborate for the common good. In January and February, 2022 this did not always happen.” 

    Mercedes Stephenson: Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino joins me now. Welcome to the show, minister.

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Thanks for having me.

    Mercedes Stephenson: I guess you couldn’t have asked for much of a better report as the government. It very clearly said that this was required, but it also said it never needed to get to this point, that there were failures in policing. There were failures in politics. There were failures in politicians at different levels of government, to get along. Do you wish you’d handled this differently or acted sooner?

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Well first, I want to begin my—expressing my gratitude to Judge Rouleau for issuing his report. After carefully listening to all of the evidence over a number of weeks, he did come to the conclusion that the government was justified in invoking the Emergencies Act and that is because, as you pointed out, this was a protest that was national in scale. It impacted people and workers. It completely upended folks’ way of going about their daily lives. And the government had a responsibility to act, so we took that responsibility and we took that decision very seriously. We did not want to invoke the act, but we did and it worked. And it resolved the blockades. No one got hurt. There were no fatalities. There was no significant damage to property. And now we have to set about looking at the recommendations that he was very thoughtful in writing, including making sure that we’ve got strong lines of communication with police and governments so that ideally, we never get into this situation again.

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    Mercedes Stephenson: Did you agree with the assessment that Doug Ford basically abandoned the people of Ottawa, according to this report that the Ontario government failed to act?   

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Well there’s no doubt that there was very difficult moments not only for the provinces and the territories, but for the police and that is why the government took every step to address those challenges, as Judge Rouleau wrote in his report. I think one of the important points going forward is to strengthen the collaboration, strengthen the coordination between all levels of government so that it never does get to a point where you need to invoke the Emergencies Act. There are some concrete recommendations around policing and sharing of information and intelligence, and even some of the texts that are in the law itself. We’re going to study those very carefully and we’re going to work with all of our provincial and territorial partners, including Ontario with whom we’ve got a good working relationship to go forward, because there’s nothing more important than protecting the health and safety of Canadians.

    Mercedes Stephenson: On Friday, Prime Minister Trudeau basically said that he was sorry for calling people who engaged in this a fringe minority, and there’s been a lot of discussion about the divisions in Canada and the kind of language that was used. Pierre Poilievre, the Opposition Leader, is laying the responsibility for the convoy at the feet of the Liberal government, saying that due to government overreach on COVID restrictions that went too far for too long and the way that you talked about people who disagreed with them is essentially what led to this. Is there some truth to that?  

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    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: There’s definitely some truth to the fact that Canadians were hurting throughout the pandemic. And there’s also truth in the fact that we live in a democracy and people have a fundamental right to express different points of view, and having debates is one of the ways in which we make forward progress. But it’s also true that the government at every critical juncture throughout the pandemic and throughout our tenure has always placed as a paramount goal, the protection of the health and safety of Canadians. And when we do that, we base our decisions on evidence and science and facts. And as we navigate these challenging times, it’s important that we work together, and I think, perhaps, that is one of the most important themes that come out of the Rouleau Commission report.  

    Mercedes Stephenson: But that wasn’t really your government’s tone at the time.

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Well, I would simply say that yes, there are definitely some lessons to be taken, but our commitment is to study the recommendations very carefully and bring Canadians along as we accelerate our recovery coming out of the pandemic. But this was an important moment for us to act. We had a duty to act. We were confronted with a very unique situation, where people couldn’t get to work. Thousands of people were laid off, temporarily. Businesses were shut down. People could not traverse the border. We had one of our closest, if not our closest ally in the United States, expressing the profound concerns that these blockades would interrupt the flow of critical supply chains. In the fact of all of those circumstances, we had no choice to act. We were always reluctant to invoke and eager to revoke. And now we will study the Commission report, to take whatever lessons we need to, going forward so ideally, we never have to invoke it again. 

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    Mercedes Stephenson: As the minister of public safety, you oversee the RCMP and CSIS, two of Canada’s policing and intelligence agencies that deal with foreign interference. It’s something that Global News has reported on a lot. There was a pretty explosive report in The Globe and Mail on Friday, citing documents, very high level documents from CSIS, talking about China’s attempts to interfere directly in the election, and in fact, a target, particularly Conservative candidates and to cause them to lose. This was the strategy. You have repeatedly said that you didn’t have any evidence of China interfering. Then on Friday, the prime minister came out and said, well of course we’ve known China’s trying to interfere for a long time. My question to you is: Do you, or do you not, have evidence that China interfered in the 2021 election?

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Mercedes, we’ve always been up front with Canadians that foreign interference is a significant threat in the national security landscape, and that’s why we created independent panels made up of non-partisan, professional public servants, to examine very carefully the circumstances in the 2019 and 2021 federal elections. And after conducting that review, they came to the conclusion that those elections were free and fair. Now that’s very important…

    Mercedes Stephenson: Despite what CSIS is saying, because CSIS is—I should be careful of that—CSIS is not saying they were not free or fair elections…  

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: That’s right. They’re not saying that.   

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    Mercedes Stephenson: They are documenting threats which were not publicly revealed. Should you have told the Canadian people about these attempts to interfere? 

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: We’ve always been up front with the fact that there is foreign interference that we need to be eyes wide-open and vigilant about. They pose a threat to our democratic institutions, which is why we put in place tools like Bill C-76, to stop foreign funding from interfering with elections, which is why we created two panels. And it was up to the non… 

    Mercedes Stephenson: But when were those created? Weren’t they before the 2021 election? 

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: To be clear, we created both of those panels to look at both elections. You don’t want elected politicians wading into the outcomes. You want non-partisan, professional public servants, to independently study the circumstances of the elections, who concluded on their own, independently, that the elections were free and fair. And that’s important… 

    Mercedes Stephenson: Did they have access to the CSIS reports? 

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: And I just want to complete the thought. That’s important because that means that Canadians, and Canadians alone, determined the outcome of those elections, and we will continue to be sure that we are eyes wide-open about that.  

    Mercedes Stephenson: Did that panel have access to these intelligence reports? Were they aware of what CSIS was aware of? 

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    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Our non-partisan, professional public servants look at the information that they need to, to make the assessment around the integrity of the election.

    Mercedes Stephenson: Does that include the CSIS report?

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: So they get the access that they need to the information that is required to come to those conclusions. And those are important [00:09:20] against the threats of foreign interference. I’d also point out that it’s not just about democratic institutions. It’s also about protecting our economy, which is why in recent days, myself, Minister Champagne, Minister Duclos, also strengthened the protections in the academic sector by ensuring that there are stricter guidelines when it comes to research partnerships when they propose to study sensitive areas, where that partnership includes military and other sensitive branches of hostile state actors. This government will always take whatever steps that are necessary, to protect our democratic institutions, protect our elections, protect our economy and to protect Canadians from foreign interference.

    Mercedes Stephenson: Does that include expelling Chinese diplomats who are bragging about attempts to influence the election?

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: We will always take whatever steps that is necessary. If that means condemning hostile state actors, we will do it. If that means taking other measures, then we will do it. And we’re eyes wide open about what those threats look like and we’ve put in place… 

    Mercedes Stephenson: But you’ve known about these threats for some time. We’re just finding out about them because we’re seeing the documents. But you’re the minister of public safety, so people will wonder why haven’t you taken more aggressive action? 

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    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Well in the first case, we are taking very aggressive action to deal with the threats and I’ve laid out a number of concrete tools so that Canadians can be assured that their elections are free and fair, that they and they alone determine the outcomes of it, and they can be absolutely confident that that is the case. That when it comes to protecting our economy, we’re putting in additional measures. In 2019, we passed Bill C-59, to give CSIS additional threat reduction measure powers, but the corresponding responsibility of the government is to be transparent. And so by creating NSIRA, the National Security Intelligence Review Agency… 

    Mercedes Stephenson: Have you been transparent with Canadians about what you know, though?

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Absolutely. By creating NSIRA, by creating the National Security Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians and yes, by creating the critical response group that is a panel that is made up of independent, non-partisan public servants who report to Canadians openly, transparently… 

    Mercedes Stephenson: And did not document any threats to the election. 

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: …openly and transparently so that Canadians can be sure that their democratic institutions are protected. That is the high bar that this government has set and that is the high bar that the government will continue to live up to.  

    Mercedes Stephenson: I have heard from both Liberals and Conservatives that it’s dangerous to talk about China attempting to fund interference in Canadian elections because it can cause you to lose an election or lose a seat, that there is very much, and it’s not a Liberal or Conservative side necessarily, that there is a danger to talking about China from a political vantage of winning an election. Do you think that that is impeding a willingness on all sides of the political spectrum to crack down on China? 

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    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: National security is not a partisan issue. This is something that all parties should be united in addressing. And that is why when we speak about this, we speak about it in terms of relying on our institutions, relying on non-partisan public servants, to ensure that our democratic institutions are protected. We’re relying on the various branches within the National Security and Intelligence Agencies, to give the tools that they need, to protect our economy, to protect our communities. And by giving them those tools, we can address the concerns that have been expressed around intimidation, around harassment, around potential retaliation. The government is there to support all Canadians and we’ll continue to be eyes wide-open about addressing those threats by making sure that all of our agencies have the tools that they need but with the corresponding transparency that is required to be upfront with Canadians so that Canadians can maintain confidence in their institutions.

    Mercedes Stephenson: We know that both our viewers and we here at The West Block love transparency, so we look forward to having you back again. Thank you so much for joining us today, minister. 

    Marco Mendicino, Public Safety Minister: Thank you, Mercedes.

    Up next, why a former defence minister says the Chinese spy balloon and those other aerial objects should be a wakeup call for Canada.  

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    Mercedes Stephenson: There are a lot of unanswered questions about the Chinese spy balloon and the three aerial objects shot down by NORAD earlier this month.

    U.S. President Joe Biden is saying the three objects were likely harmless. But between the spy balloon and scrambled fighter jets, tensions with China are clearly on the rise. Biden says his message to Beijing is clear: The U.S. won’t tolerate a violation of its sovereignty.

    Joe Biden, U.S. President: “We seek competition, not conflict with China. We’re not looking for a new Cold War.” 

    Mercedes Stephenson: Joining me now to talk about Canada’s response is former Conservative Defence Minister Peter MacKay. Peter, thank you for coming on.

    Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: My pleasure, Mercedes.

    Mercedes Stephenson: We’ve been watching this whole thing, tracking it very closely. You could see it really escalating when it looked for a while like there might be four spy balloons. Now they’re saying only one definitely was, but it is part of a global surveillance program that the Chinese are conducting and there’s this sense of tension between China and not just Canada but the U.S. and North America that I can’t remember seeing for years. What is your take on the situation that we’re in right now?

    Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Well, I think you’re right. There was a moment in time probably last week, where it seemed surreal that there were numerous of these platforms—observation platforms as they were being described, some saying UFO. It looks more and more like the evidence will bear out that it was one and then others that coincidently had entered North American airspace. What made it a bit difficult to interpret was they were all different sizes, different locations at different altitudes and NORAD, of course, is tasked, first and foremost with protecting the skies over North America, the continent. It’s a shared responsibility: Canada-U.S. So one can understand reasonably why they took them down in a militaristic sense. They took them down with sidewinder missiles. It was American aircraft that was scrambled, although Canadian planes were in the vicinity. And it raises broader questions as you’ve alluded to in your opening. What does this mean for the ongoing tensions with China? With Russia as well, of course, and what about the defences of North America, particularly the vulnerability from the Arctic? And that’s where, you know, the discussion around Arctic defences and installations; observation from the Arctic becomes really, a critical question.

    Mercedes Stephenson: Well and I know that this is something that you’ve been talking about a lot recently, and most of North America’s Arctic belongs to Canada. It’s Canadian territory. What kind of ability do we have to actually monitor and defend that right now?

    Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Very little. We don’t have modern fighter aircraft, as you know. We have some observation platforms available. We, of course, don’t have even the antiquated what they used to call the DEW line, which was a series of sensors. But we know the technology exists through satellite. We need to have the ability to have more ships there. For refuelling, we have to have a deep water refuelling station. That is still under construction. It will take a system of systems, if you will, including underwater sensors. All of this is a massive investment. The current government has committed to that but over a very long period of time. And if anything, this balloon incident, which looks to be overblown—pardon the pun—has put a sharp focus on what will be required. And I think the Americans have a greater appreciation and perhaps a little more anxiety about this than most Canadians. We haven’t taken this situation serious enough, in my opinion.

    Mercedes Stephenson: How much influence does Canada have at the table in terms of making these decisions on things like shoot downs right now? Because it seemed like Justin Trudeau and Joe Biden were both kind of saying they ordered the shoot down. Does Canada have a voice or is it the U.S. calling the shots?

    Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: We have a voice, to be sure. But in this case, make no mistake, the Americans called the shot and took the shot with their aircraft and their missiles, which by the way are about $0.5 million a pop. But we’re losing face and we’re losing that influence when we’re not upping our game. We don’t have modern aircraft. We don’t have the ships that we need. We certainly don’t have the number of submarines that the U.S., the UK and others have. And that’s why, frankly, we weren’t invited to the table with this new organization called [00:04:45 UKUSA], which is the equivalent of the Five Eyes. So we are on a downward spiral. We’re not paying our commitment to NATO with respect to the percentage of GDP. All of this in accumulation does diminish Canada’s voice at a lot of tables.

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    Mercedes Stephenson: Do you think that we’re going to see more, not necessarily just spy balloons, but these kinds of incursions from states like Russia and China in areas that most of us in the public hadn’t even been thinking about?

    Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Sadly, I think it’s entirely possible, almost expected. I believe the Chinese were opportunistic in this sense and Russia can be even more so. It’s not only the air approaches that we need to be concerned about, Mercedes. With the opening of Arctic waters, similarly, the Russians are more active, the Chinese as well in sending these research vessels through our waters. Russia, in particular, is recapitalizing some of their old military bases on their side of the Arctic. So that is to say the waters that we share, up to a certain line, the Russians are much more prepared and much more armed and much more able. And so this will pose certain challenges to Canada, in particular, but to NORAD and North America. And the Arctic Rangers, God love them, we simply—we need much more in terms of our protection of sovereignty and projection of Canadian military capability. 

    Mercedes Stephenson: Speaking of Russia, there was a Russian not incursion but sort of test of the Northern skies that NORAD said they considered to be among the norm. There was an interception that happened last week, but of course, where Russia is most active is Ukraine. And a year on, a lot of folks didn’t think we would still see the Ukrainians fighting. They are. The West has backed them, but it’s still very much a question of how this is going to turn out? Do you think that Western countries are doing enough to support Ukraine and how do you balance that with also not escalating it to being drawn in and viewed potentially as a combatant?

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    Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: I don’t think that we, the West, are doing enough and I fear that this is far from over. Russia will continually test the commitment of NATO and the West in what they’re doing in this illegal invasion of Ukraine. As you know, this goes back to 2014. We’re coming up on the one year anniversary, if you will, of the true war on Ukraine. But it begin in Crimea in 2014, and so we, the West, have been preparing and have knowledge of this for a very long time. Sending in tanks, air defence systems, everything short of, quite frankly, boots on the ground, has to continue. This is a quintessential threat not just to Ukraine, but to global security and the whole order of peace in the world. This is on Europe’s doorstep. What it has done as well, Mercedes, clearly, is accelerate the expansion of NATO, enlargement of NATO. It has allowed Ukraine, perhaps, to enter the European Union at an accelerated pace as well, in an effort to take every step to push back on Russia. But it’s coming at a massive cost, of course, in human lives. The infrastructure that’s being destroyed on the ground and it’s also having a massive impact on Russia. It has blown up spectacularly on them. They’re a poorer country. They’re a weaker country. They’ve lost their ability to project power and perhaps become more reliant, supplicant to China as a result of this ill thought out incursion into their neighbouring country of Ukraine.  

    Mercedes Stephenson: Peter MacKay, former minister of defence, thank you for joining us today.

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    Peter MacKay, Former Defence Minister: Thank you, Mercedes.

    Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, taking stock as Ukraine marks on year since Russia’s invasion. 

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    Mercedes Stephenson: Now for one last thing, and this week it’s a very important one. We’re approaching the one year anniversary of Russia invading Ukraine. The images of Russian soldiers advancing shocked the world and few thought that a year later, Ukraine would still be fighting. But their resolve remains strong. It’s been a year filled with atrocities, the systemic targeting of civilians, the destruction of Ukrainian towns and cities and a long list of war crimes.

    The West has backed Ukraine with words and weapons, seeing it as the front line between democracy and tyranny, but it has not been enough to win yet. As we mark this tragic anniversary, we’ll see what more the West is willing to give in coming days.

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    Thanks for watching today, and I’ll see you next Sunday.





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