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Thread: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

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  1. #41
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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    Of course you have the right to express yourself ... And how you rank your personal identities is no one else's concern ...

    But When you say Pakistan was created in the name of Islam, it's because of your lack of knowledge of our history (and state-sponsored religious chauvinistic indoctrination via distortion) ... And I, as an equal and free fellow citizen of Pakistan, have every right to point it out to you (and others)..

    Thank You
    Bhai distortion or not, not going into such depth, that will only make me see the different shades of grey, white will stay white, black would stay black, I know who am I going to be answerable to, when I breath my last.

    I am a Muslim first and then I am a Pakistani, it is as clear to me as daylight.

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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim View Post
    Bhai distortion or not, not going into such depth ......
    Ignorance is a choice ... And You choose to remain ignorant !!
    " There is no God but Allah , Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah " ................... لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله


    "(O Muhammad) And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." [Al Quran 2:219]

    "And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment"[9:34]

    "..Allah has provided land & Resources for all needful. [41:10]

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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    Ignorance is a choice ... And You choose to remain ignorant !!
    You chose to ignore my full reply, it says I am First answerable to Allah then to anyone else.

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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim View Post
    You chose to ignore my full reply, it says I am First answerable to Allah then to anyone else.
    Do not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning [17:36]
    The Following User Says Thank You to Sarmad For This Useful Post: Wattan

    " There is no God but Allah , Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah " ................... لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله


    "(O Muhammad) And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." [Al Quran 2:219]

    "And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment"[9:34]

    "..Allah has provided land & Resources for all needful. [41:10]

  5. #45
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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    Do not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning [17:36]
    Yes, I am First answerable to Allah.

    What is the concept of Nationalism first in Islam ?

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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    Do not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, sight, and the faculty of reasoning [17:36]
    Blind faith can too be dangerous
    The Following User Says Thank You to Wattan For This Useful Post: Sarmad


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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Wattan View Post
    Blind faith can too be dangerous
    This is why I have asked [MENTION=8004]Sarmad[/MENTION] to help me become a Pakistani first by pointing out where Quran may have ordered Nationalism first.

    May Allah make the correct path easy for us, make me correct where I am wrong and make others correct where they are wrong, Ameen.

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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim View Post
    This is why I have asked [MENTION=8004]Sarmad[/MENTION] to help me become a Pakistani first by pointing out where Quran may have ordered Nationalism first.
    There is no concept of "state/country" (local or global) in the Holy Quran... The Holy Quran was revealed 1400 years ago .... The concept of "Nation State" first began to emerge in Europe in the 16th century, the concept of Muslim Nationalism in South Asia was developed in the 19th century, and Pakistan came into being in 1947 ... The Holy Quran does not tell us to be a Pakistani First or a Muslim first ... And there is nothing in the Holy Quran that tells us that we can't be Pakistani First .....

    And if you are interested in reading/learning about compatibility/relationship between Modern Nationalism and Islam, please read "Composite Nationalism and Islam" written by Maulana Hussain Ahmed Madni (in 1938) ... Madani has argued that bonds of Ummah/religion can be reconciled with bonds of nationality and the bond of territory and, more importantly, he found space for such an argument in the Quran.
    The Following User Says Thank You to Sarmad For This Useful Post: Neo

    Last edited by Sarmad; 27th January 2016 at 17:55.
    " There is no God but Allah , Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah " ................... لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله


    "(O Muhammad) And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." [Al Quran 2:219]

    "And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment"[9:34]

    "..Allah has provided land & Resources for all needful. [41:10]

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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    There is no concept of "state/country" (local or global) in the Holy Quran... The Holy Quran was revealed 1400 years ago .... The concept of "Nation State" first began to emerge in Europe in the 16th century, the concept of Muslim Nationalism in South Asia was developed in the 19th century, and Pakistan came into being in 1947 ... The Holy Quran does not tell us to be a Pakistani First or a Muslim first ... And there is nothing in the Holy Quran that tells us that we can't be Pakistani First .....

    And if you are interested in reading/learning about compatibility/relationship between Modern Nationalism and Islam, please read "Composite Nationalism and Islam" written by Maulana Hussain Ahmed Madni (in 1938) ... Madani has argued that bonds of Ummah/religion can be reconciled with bonds of nationality and the bond of territory and, more importantly, he found space for such an argument in the Quran.
    Where did he find the space in the Quran ?

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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim View Post
    Where did he find the space in the Quran ?
    Read his book and You will find out ...
    " There is no God but Allah , Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah " ................... لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله


    "(O Muhammad) And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." [Al Quran 2:219]

    "And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment"[9:34]

    "..Allah has provided land & Resources for all needful. [41:10]

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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Religion is a matter of choice but nationality is a given. Therefor I am a Pakistani first and then anything else.
    The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Neo For This Useful Post: Hariz,manuu,Sarmad

    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    Religion is a matter of choice but nationality is a given. Therefor I am a Pakistani first and then anything else.
    Perfectly articulated bro
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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    Read his book and You will find out ...
    Please summarize here if you can, how can anyone be a Nationalist following the Quran, which strongly suggests the concept of One Ummah !

    I just came here because you are a strict follower of the Quran, and when you say you are a Pakistani first and then a Muslim, it makes me wonder, how ?

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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    Religion is a matter of choice but nationality is a given. Therefor I am a Pakistani first and then anything else.
    I have much sympathy with this position
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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim View Post
    Please summarize here if you can, how can anyone be a Nationalist following the Quran, which strongly suggests the concept of One Ummah !
    That 'One Ummah' also included the Non-Muslims (living in the "state of Medinah") during the times of the Holy Prophet (PBUH).... What is your point ?

    This book mainly deals with two aspects, i.e. the meaning of the term qaum and how it is distinct from the term millat, and secondly, the crucial distinction between these two words and their true meanings in the holy Koran and the Hadith tradition. By proposing composite nationalism, this important book strongly argues that despite cultural, linguistic and religious differences, the people of India are but one nation. According to the author, any effort to divide Indians on the basis of religion, caste, culture, ethnicity and language is a ploy of the ruling power.- Barbara D. Metcalf


    ----------------

    http://micropaedia.org/2011/07/03/co...-ahmad-madani/

    ----------------




    I just came here because you are a strict follower of the Quran, and when you say you are a Pakistani first and then a Muslim, it makes me wonder, how ?

    During the struggle for the freedom, the most important issue which concerned Muslim Scholars (and political activists) was about the national and religious identity of Indian Muslims and their position in the future India ...


    Hussain Ahmed Madani and many others advocated "Composite Nationalism", and believed/argued that this idea was consistent with the teachings of the Holy Quran and that the Prophet (PBUH) himself had set a practical example of Composite Nationalism when he signed the Constitution of Medina (Meesaq-e-Medina)



    Then there were those who advocated the idea of "Muslim Nationalism in India" ... This idea formed the basis of the Two Nation Theory ... This idea/theory implies/implied that We were Muslims before being Indian ... And We were Indians (or Pakistanis) before being (Non-Indian/Pakistani) Muslim ...


    And there were others (like Maudoodi) who were of the view that neither Composite Nationalism nor Muslim Nationalism were Islamic in their orientation, therefore, they warned the Muslims of the sub-continent to be beware of both. Few of them advocated "Pan-Islamism"



    There always has been difference of opinion among the scholars regarding the compatibility (or the lack thereof) of Islam and Nationalism ....


    So, instead of "wondering", May be You should start "reading"

    Thank You
    Last edited by Sarmad; 30th January 2016 at 15:39.
    " There is no God but Allah , Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah " ................... لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله


    "(O Muhammad) And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." [Al Quran 2:219]

    "And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment"[9:34]

    "..Allah has provided land & Resources for all needful. [41:10]

  16. #56
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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    That 'One Ummah' also included the Non-Muslims (living in the "state of Medinah") during the times of the Holy Prophet (PBUH).... What is your point ?

    This book mainly deals with two aspects, i.e. the meaning of the term qaum and how it is distinct from the term millat, and secondly, the crucial distinction between these two words and their true meanings in the holy Koran and the Hadith tradition. By proposing composite nationalism, this important book strongly argues that despite cultural, linguistic and religious differences, the people of India are but one nation. According to the author, any effort to divide Indians on the basis of religion, caste, culture, ethnicity and language is a ploy of the ruling power.- Barbara D. Metcalf


    ----------------

    http://micropaedia.org/2011/07/03/co...-ahmad-madani/

    ----------------







    During the struggle for the freedom, the most important issue which concerned Muslim Scholars (and political activists) was about the national and religious identity of Indian Muslims and their position in the future India ...


    Hussain Ahmed Madani and many others advocated "Composite Nationalism", and believed/argued that this idea was consistent with the teachings of the Holy Quran and that the Prophet (PBUH) himself had set a practical example of Composite Nationalism when he signed the Constitution of Medina (Meesaq-e-Medina)



    Then there were those who advocated the idea of "Muslim Nationalism in India" ... This idea formed the basis of the Two Nation Theory ... This idea/theory implies/implied that We were Muslims before being Indian ... And We were Indians (or Pakistanis) before being (Non-Indian/Pakistani) Muslim ...


    And there were others (like Maudoodi) who were of the view that neither Composite Nationalism nor Muslim Nationalism were Islamic in their orientation, therefore, they warned the Muslims of the sub-continent to be beware of both. Few of them advocated "Pan-Islamism"



    There always has been difference of opinion among the scholars regarding the compatibility (or the lack thereof) of Islam and Nationalism ....


    So, instead of "wondering", May be You should start "reading"

    Thank You
    Reading but not satisfied, I am not satisfied with the beautiful faces of women that are posted here and there, neither am I satisfied with your position on Nationality first, Faith second.

    Just heard a sweet tune, now I have to go offer my Isha prayer but the music that some of us have allowed, keeps on playing in our head.

    It is time for me to say : أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم

    see you soon my brother !
    The Following User Says Thank You to Muslim For This Useful Post: Sarmad


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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim View Post
    Reading but not satisfied, I am not satisfied with the beautiful faces of women that are posted here and there, neither am I satisfied with your position on Nationality first, Faith second.

    Just heard a sweet tune, now I have to go offer my Isha prayer but the music that some of us have allowed, keeps on playing in our head.

    It is time for me to say : أعوذ بالله من الشيطان الرجيم

    see you soon my brother !
    That's not "my position"

    As I have stated earlier (in another thread), I believe the Pakistani nationalist ideology is very unique, and (for the Pakistani Muslims at least) Pakistani Nationalism and Islam are not mutually exclusive ..... I for one do not prioritize a Pakistani identity over Muslim identity (or vice versa)


    But here we are discussing compatibility of Islam and Nationalism, and although I do not wholly agree with the idea of "Composite Nationalism", I believe that this idea, as I explained in my previous posts, is NOT in contradiction with the teachings of the Holy Quran (or Sunnah)...

    And good that you are reading ... You may or may not agree with How other Muslims interpret Islam and the Holy Quran, but you have no right to declare those interpretations (which are different from your own) as "un-Islamic" ... Hope you get my point ... Thank You
    Last edited by Sarmad; 30th January 2016 at 19:04.
    " There is no God but Allah , Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah " ................... لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله


    "(O Muhammad) And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." [Al Quran 2:219]

    "And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment"[9:34]

    "..Allah has provided land & Resources for all needful. [41:10]

  18. #58
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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    I see the confusion.

    You can be born a non Muslim or a non Christian but can choose to become one.

    God has no role in that. Only the choice a man makes.

    It is not so for the original ancient faiths.

    Each is linked by God to a bloodline.
    One can only be born a Zoroastrian.

    One can only be born a Hindu.

    It is God's imprint on your DNA.

    Hence both faiths strongly resist conversion.

    Man has really no locus standi in the matter.

    THIS is the fundamental schism between Zoroastrianism and Hinduism and the Abrahamic faiths like Christianity and Islam.

    And indeed the tug o war for soul count between Christianity and Islam itself.

    Cheers, Doc

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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by vsdoc View Post
    I see the confusion.

    You can be born a non Muslim or a non Christian but can choose to become one.

    God has no role in that. Only the choice a man makes.

    It is not so for the original ancient faiths.

    Each is linked by God to a bloodline.
    One can only be born a Zoroastrian.

    One can only be born a Hindu.

    It is God's imprint on your DNA.

    Hence both faiths strongly resist conversion.

    Man has really no locus standi in the matter.

    THIS is the fundamental schism between Zoroastrianism and Hinduism and the Abrahamic faiths like Christianity and Islam.

    And indeed the tug o war for soul count between Christianity and Islam itself.

    Cheers, Doc
    what about our Freewill ? Its like that Dalit video that we saw, hum koi Science waince, koi logic shogic nahi janat hai, hamri khopri to ye janat hai ke sala dalet hua foot se paida, hum hua siri se.

    How can this be ?

    And Christianity speaks to the Children of Israel only, that too for that time only.

  20. #60
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    Re: 'Facilitators behind BKU attack' revealed after DG ISPR's press conference

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    That's not "my position"

    As I have stated earlier (in another thread), I believe the Pakistani nationalist ideology is very unique, and (for the Pakistani Muslims at least) Pakistani Nationalism and Islam are not mutually exclusive ..... I for one do not prioritize a Pakistani identity over Muslim identity (or vice versa)


    But here we are discussing compatibility of Islam and Nationalism, and although I do not wholly agree with the idea of "Composite Nationalism", I believe that this idea, as I explained in my previous posts, is NOT in contradiction with the teachings of the Holy Quran (or Sunnah)...

    And good that you are reading ... You may or may not agree with How other Muslims interpret Islam and the Holy Quran, but you have no right to declare those interpretations (which are different from your own) as "un-Islamic" ... Hope you get my point ... Thank You
    You are most welcome my Brother

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