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Thread: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

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  1. #121
    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Quote Originally Posted by keysersoze View Post
    Ok where to start with this one. my figures were for the F404 not the F404 IN20 so I will give you that. However the figure of 19000 is the wet reheat speed of the engine. You can't use "Emergency speed" as your basis.
    However I am gong to insert something from the Indian govt brochure. Which your figures got wrong....
    The weight is 9800KG not what you posted.

    So running that through the TWR for the MK1 is .84 not .96

    http://www.tejas.gov.in/specificatio...rformance.html
    19000 lb(84.6Kn) is emergency thrust used only during take off as confirmed by Klimov.

    For same configuration Tejas Ge 404 IN20 have 20200 lb =89.8KN

    Loaded/Clean weight for tejas include
    1.fuel
    2.Pylons
    3.canon munition
    4.2 R73 AAM missile each weighing 105kg
    5 Pilot weight.

    I double if pak accounts these items for calculation.
    Recently Ifr probe will be added as well from 29th block 2.

    Experts don't calculate TWR with loaded weight.

    Hence all citation of TWR include Empty weight and Fuel.

    Moreover none of us even talking about 300kg lead ballast/dead weight and over engineered heavy landing gear (300kg heavier)which gives room for 500-600kg removal from current 6560kg empty weight even after IFR and aesa integration for MK1A


    RD 93 MA is not yet into production. Can you name 1 aeronautical company that can integrate,test and certify a new engine into an aircraft with in 2 yrs

    Tejas Mk2 length is barely 1 meter longer and 2 meter more in height.
    The new engine integration with such minute size change require more than half decade of effort.

    If pak decides to move towards composites then it should nt expect shortcut in development
    Last edited by Mohan Tiwari; 13th February 2016 at 04:03.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust-to-weight_ratio



    For the metric table, the T/W ratio is calculated by dividing the thrust by the product of the full fuel aircraft weight and the acceleration of gravity.



    The data has some minor glitches about Tejas thrust--With 19000 lbf, it comes around 84.5 KN--
    PS: I am not accounting 20200 lbf/89.8KN,the max possible thrust/emergency thrust in the calculation!
    Pakistan Aeronautical Complex(PAC) proudly displays the RD-93’s “Combat thrust with afterburner” as 19,200lbf, while the whole defense community knows RD-93’s thrust is 18,300lbf and the only real thrust increase was achieved with its new re-designed Sea Wasp RD-33MK engines- which has been explicitly stated by Klimov. However, Klimov’s RD-33 series 3, whose avatar is RD-93 with re-positioned Gear boxes, has a provision for emergency thrust which Klimov says can produce 8700kgf(~19200lbf) in their officially released document. They further state that as “Take-off emergency mode”. So the mentioned thrust can only be used during take-off where the Air is denser, and also only during emergency situations since it would seriously lower the engine’s lifespan.
    Then there are mistakes in TWR calculation!

    At 100% internal fuel
    1. Ge404 IN20 thrust is 84516 Newton Hence TWR Tejas should be 84516/(9080*9.8))= 0.9497
    2. TWR calculation for JF17 should be 81402/(8886*9.8)= 0.9347

    At 50% internal fuel
    1. TWR(Tejas) = 84516/(7820*9.8)=1.10
    2. TWR (JF17) = 81402/((8886-1150)*9.8)=1.07
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    Last edited by Mohan Tiwari; 13th February 2016 at 13:10.

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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Quote Originally Posted by keysersoze View Post
    Hmm well a well positioned poster on a another forum has given some information that I am sure most of you already know but i will repeat it here for those who don't.

    BLK 3 will have composites in order to increase the payload. And considering the relative weight of AESA radars essential. there will be a reshaped nose as well.
    A more powerful engine has been developed by AVIC with Russian help (A more powerful version of RD-93) This engine was developed for the two seater version. however it will be standard engine in the BLK3
    I heard this yesterday from Alan Warnes tweets.

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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    19000 lb(84.6Kn) is emergency thrust used only during take off as confirmed by Klimov.

    For same configuration Tejas Ge 404 IN20 have 20200 lb =89.8KN

    Loaded/Clean weight for tejas include
    1.fuel
    2.Pylons
    3.canon munition
    4.2 R73 AAM missile each weighing 105kg
    5 Pilot weight.

    I double if pak accounts these items for calculation.
    Recently Ifr probe will be added as well from 29th block 2.

    Experts don't calculate TWR with loaded weight.

    Hence all citation of TWR include Empty weight and Fuel.

    Moreover none of us even talking about 300kg lead ballast/dead weight and over engineered heavy landing gear (300kg heavier)which gives room for 500-600kg removal from current 6560kg empty weight even after IFR and aesa integration for MK1A


    RD 93 MA is not yet into production. Can you name 1 aeronautical company that can integrate,test and certify a new engine into an aircraft with in 2 yrs

    Tejas Mk2 length is barely 1 meter longer and 2 meter more in height.
    The new engine integration with such minute size change require more than half decade of effort.

    If pak decides to move towards composites then it should nt expect shortcut in development
    Lol don't like the results so change the parameters lol ok lets play with that you may need your maths skills for this one lol. your calculat

    Hey everyone Mohan has admitted that the LCA needed ballast and the landing gear is over engineered lol. well I wonder what time it will take to re engineer all that lol. They haven't removed it yet so it still counts. I also like how the IAF have to have pilots that are exactly the same weight with small feet so they can eject safely. The reality is that your fanboyism has clouded your rational thought.
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    Last edited by keysersoze; 13th February 2016 at 14:38.

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    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Quote Originally Posted by keysersoze View Post
    Lol don't like the results so change the parameters lol ok lets play with that you may need your maths skills for this one lol. your calculat

    Hey everyone Mohan has admitted that the LCA needed ballast and the landing gear is over engineered lol. well I wonder what time it will take to re engineer all that lol. They haven't removed it yet so it still counts. I also like how the IAF have to have pilots that are exactly the same weight with small feet so they can eject safely. The reality is that your fanboyism has clouded your rational thought.
    Its not me but the experts who calculate that way.

    I did cite the wiki article in next post where there is comparison of all TWR for all fighters

    Everyone knows that ballast is to be removed and landinggear is to be changed in MK1A.
    The pilot foot size problem was resolved in IOC version.

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    Professionals keysersoze's Avatar
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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    Its not me but the experts who calculate that way.

    I did cite the wiki article in next post where there is comparison of all TWR for all fighters

    Everyone knows that ballast is to be removed and landinggear is to be changed in MK1A.
    The pilot foot size problem was resolved in IOC version.
    Oh the "Experts?" who would they be and where did you find the information? Lets just work it out with whats open source from the manufacturers. It might not be 100% accurate but its more accurate then all your "Going to be "
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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    all twr calculation is either done with 100% fuel or 50% fuel.I showed you both in those post

    Tejas is reality. Despite heavy landing gear and dead weight it has better thrust to weight.
    Pak eventually only gets to assemble CKD kits for those fighter.Pak cant develop next gen jf17 on its own.

    Pac kamra declare that pak only makes 58% of airframe / fuselage. Airframe is normally less than 20% of total cost.Pak contributions in jf17 is 11% approx.
    Everything else is imported and assembled.

    Pakistan future of aeronautics is tied to china while india is moving towards independence.
    HAL were importing 75% raw materials and subsystem in 2012 as per CAG report.
    In 2015 they are importing just 50%.
    Hal may be slow and beginner in aeronautical Industry but they filed 773 patents in 2014-15.

    Jf17 program have an edge of 3-4years over tejas but lets see if pak can sustain it.
    Last edited by Mohan Tiwari; 13th February 2016 at 18:17.

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    Professionals keysersoze's Avatar
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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    all twr calculation is either done with 100% fuel or 50% fuel.I showed you both in those post

    Tejas is reality. Despite heavy landing gear and dead weight it has better thrust to weight.
    Pak eventually only gets to assemble CKD kits for those fighter.Pak cant develop next gen jf17 on its own.

    Pac kamra declare that pak only makes 58% of airframe / fuselage. Airframe is normally less than 20% of total cost.Pak contributions in jf17 is 11% approx.
    Everything else is imported and assembled.

    Pakistan future of aeronautics is tied to china while india is moving towards independence.
    HAL were importing 75% raw materials and subsystem in 2012 as per CAG report.
    In 2015 they are importing just 50%.
    Hal may be slow and beginner in aeronautical Industry but they filed 773 patents in 2014-15.

    Jf17 program have an edge of 3-4years over tejas but lets see if pak can sustain it.
    Ok the Tejas is a reality. but one no one really wants. If the TWR you are positing are contrary to all the ones everywhere else s. the reality is as follows. The IAF don't want the MK1 and are having it forced upon them The MK2 is still a pipe dream.

    After 30 years still no FOC, no operational squadrons and no overseas sales. =fail

    The LCA is yet another white elephant of the Indian defence industry. Right next to Arjun mk1 and Mk2 the NAG missile the INSAS rifle and the wonderfully crashy Dhruv....
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    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Quote Originally Posted by keysersoze View Post
    Ok the Tejas is a reality. but one no one really wants. If the TWR you are positing are contrary to all the ones everywhere else s. the reality is as follows. The IAF don't want the MK1 and are having it forced upon them The MK2 is still a pipe dream.

    After 30 years still no FOC, no operational squadrons and no overseas sales. =fail

    The LCA is yet another white elephant of the Indian defence industry. Right next to Arjun mk1 and Mk2 the NAG missile the INSAS rifle and the wonderfully crashy Dhruv....
    You cant make your own comparison of TWR where you compare tejas loaded with cannon munitions,AAM missiles against empty + fuel laden jf17 .
    if tejas weigh less than jf17 even with those metal plates in front then how can it be heavier if compared on equal terms. The only difference should be extra 150kg which tejas carries more than jf17.

    The derby bvr test are undergoing which took jf another block to bring in.
    Arjun tanks are maturing but they dont enter into big production as T90 are ultra cheap to license produce.
    Arjun mk1, mk2 are programs for R&d. They need local engine which is under R&d production phase.
    Nag missile received green signal for production. They have two diff version:
    local made IIR seeker & MMW seeker.
    230 dhruv has been manufactured. The new versions are optimized and have fewer issues.
    Not to forget Light combat heli which is awaiting final clearance after successful winter and summer trial.

    Chinese state media have rated it better than Z10.
    Insas have got many version update. Look at excalibur. They have 1stoppage after firing 10000rounds of Bullet. They performed better than world top rifle in field trial

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    Professionals keysersoze's Avatar
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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    You cant make your own comparison of TWR where you compare tejas loaded with cannon munitions,AAM missiles against empty + fuel laden jf17 .
    if tejas weigh less than jf17 even with those metal plates in front then how can it be heavier if compared on equal terms. The only difference should be extra 150kg which tejas carries more than jf17.

    The derby bvr test are undergoing which took jf another block to bring in.
    Arjun tanks are maturing but they dont enter into big production as T90 are ultra cheap to license produce.
    Arjun mk1, mk2 are programs for R&d. They need local engine which is under R&d production phase.
    Nag missile received green signal for production. They have two diff version:
    local made IIR seeker & MMW seeker.
    230 dhruv has been manufactured. The new versions are optimized and have fewer issues.
    Not to forget Light combat heli which is awaiting final clearance after successful winter and summer trial.

    Chinese state media have rated it better than Z10.
    Insas have got many version update. Look at excalibur. They have 1stoppage after firing 10000rounds of Bullet. They performed better than world top rifle in field trial
    ---You cant make your own comparison of TWR where you compare tejas loaded with cannon munitions,AAM missiles against empty + fuel laden jf17 Excuses excuses.... You are just guessing now you have no idea other than your own presumption. Frankly its pathetic you think this is a winng argument. What does the JF17 have on its calculations? let me answer, you have no idea and are just guessing because you have a preconceived idea that Indians are smarter despite a history of failure. I have it on good authority that the RD93 used by the JF17 has a higher output but slightly shorter lifespan. But atthe end of the day if you think the TWR of the tejas is greater than the F16 then fill your delusional boots.
    The derby bvr test are undergoing which took jf another block to bring in. Still not operational though huh? The JF has three operational squadrons the LCA has none. come back when you have FOC and operational sqaudrons.

    Arjun tanks are maturing but they dont enter into big production as T90 are ultra cheap to license produce.
    Arjun mk1, mk2 are programs for R&d. They need local engine which is under R&d production phase.


    http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...drdo/70963382/

    The above link shows that the "still maturing " lol Arjun has been 75% grounded. the next link states that the Indian Army is ADAMANT that it does not want the MK2

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/48355161.cms

    Nag missile received green signal for production. They have two diff version:
    local made IIR seeker & MMW seeker.

    lol has it? I am so glad but then the Arjun and LCA have orders too. A miminal order to keep the project from being a complete failure. A whole 443 missiles after 32 years of development. Did you know Pakistan exports AT missiles?

    230 dhruv has been manufactured. The new versions are optimized and have fewer issues.
    Not to forget Light combat heli which is awaiting final clearance after successful winter and summer trial.
    Yes I know but with 16 crashes since it started flying. Including high profile crashes with the display team and the only major order sending them back after 60% of the order crashed.

    Chinese state media have rated it better than Z10.Have they? where?
    the Z10 has longer range, more speed and the LCH is a bigger target its taller wider and longer.

    Insas have got many version update. Look at excalibur. They have 1stoppage after firing 10000rounds of Bullet. They performed better than world top rifle in field trial

    This article covers the INSAS in depth. and I understand the indian army is looking overseas for the new one ah well....lol
    https://medium.com/war-is-boring/ind...aaa#.ajtfoqv4d
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    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Quote Originally Posted by keysersoze View Post
    ---You cant make your own comparison of TWR where you compare tejas loaded with cannon munitions,AAM missiles against empty + fuel laden jf17 Excuses excuses.... You are just guessing now you have no idea other than your own presumption. Frankly its pathetic you think this is a winng argument. What does the JF17 have on its calculations? let me answer, you have no idea and are just guessing because you have a preconceived idea that Indians are smarter despite a history of failure. I have it on good authority that the RD93 used by the JF17 has a higher output but slightly shorter lifespan. But atthe end of the day if you think the TWR of the tejas is greater than the F16 then fill your delusional boots.
    The derby bvr test are undergoing which took jf another block to bring in. Still not operational though huh? The JF has three operational squadrons the LCA has none. come back when you have FOC and operational sqaudrons.

    Arjun tanks are maturing but they dont enter into big production as T90 are ultra cheap to license produce.
    Arjun mk1, mk2 are programs for R&d. They need local engine which is under R&d production phase.


    http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...drdo/70963382/

    The above link shows that the "still maturing " lol Arjun has been 75% grounded. the next link states that the Indian Army is ADAMANT that it does not want the MK2

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/48355161.cms

    Nag missile received green signal for production. They have two diff version:
    local made IIR seeker & MMW seeker.

    lol has it? I am so glad but then the Arjun and LCA have orders too. A miminal order to keep the project from being a complete failure. A whole 443 missiles after 32 years of development. Did you know Pakistan exports AT missiles?

    230 dhruv has been manufactured. The new versions are optimized and have fewer issues.
    Not to forget Light combat heli which is awaiting final clearance after successful winter and summer trial.
    Yes I know but with 16 crashes since it started flying. Including high profile crashes with the display team and the only major order sending them back after 60% of the order crashed.

    Chinese state media have rated it better than Z10.Have they? where?
    the Z10 has longer range, more speed and the LCH is a bigger target its taller wider and longer.

    Insas have got many version update. Look at excalibur. They have 1stoppage after firing 10000rounds of Bullet. They performed better than world top rifle in field trial

    This article covers the INSAS in depth. and I understand the indian army is looking overseas for the new one ah well....lol
    https://medium.com/war-is-boring/ind...aaa#.ajtfoqv4d
    1- I told you how experts calculate TWR--They dont use loaded weight which is confusing bcoz some companies and countries can fake those nos --They simply match empty weight,fuel weight and Thrust for afterburner (not emergency thrust) as shown on wikipedia & other credible blogs

    JF17 is operational bcoz chinese made it for you--- What matters is that Tejas MK1 version is at par with Block II JF bcoz you guys hurried up with half baked product

    2. Many of Arjun MKI is grounded bcoz the army dont want to pay for the parts---Some parts cost a lot since they are imported--
    There is no sense in producing 100 arjun-Turkey is simply using Korean and western parts with less home contribution than Arjun MK1 of India but they have big orders to get those parts made in turkey

    India cant mass produce Arjun until army is on board--Army finds it cheaper to buy T-90!! For DRDO Arjun is means to develop technology and move towards next Main battle tank--The engine is almost on verge of completion which alone cost 20+% of tank

    3. Pakistan license produces/assembles 2nd gen chinese anti tank missile--Nag is3rd gen Anti tank missile with 2 different variants of active seekers---MMW seeker and IIR Seekers

    4. LCH is suited for high altitude combat--It has better ROC of 14 meter/second

    Please refer this discussion http://www.pakistanaffairs.pk/thread...upcoming-beast
    1. LCH with 1000 Kg payload have better ROC than AH-64E with 1000 KG payload.at all height.

    The Apache, on the other hand, flies and fights up till ~18000 Feet and reached 0 ROC.
    LCH maintains ROC of 2 at 18000 feet
    2. LCH is light combat helicopter so it has limited payload of 2,800-3,000 kg while Apache AH-64E can carry 5,165 kg payload at
    normal heights.

    3. Chinese Z-10 has poorest ROC performance. Z-10 is very slugging heli at >10000 feet

    Source http://thebetacoefficient.blogspot.s...s-elegant.html
    4. The difference between the LCH and Apache at high altitudes is going to be in maneuverability. The LCH will turn out to be more agile and have higher performance in general because it is custom-designed to fight at higher altitudes. The Apache, on the other hand, is a brute-force machine, matching the LCH up to the Himalayas for payload, but losing out in agility. The Apache will be less agile than the LCH but will take more hits and keep flying. Where the LCH will look to evade and survive, the Apache will turn to its armor.
    5. LCH uses very high % composite to reduce radar signature.


    6. LCH uses more powerful turboshaft engine than Z-10
    =>LCH has empty weight of 2800 Kg and payload of 2800-3000.
    =>Chinese Z-10 has empty weight iof 5400 Kg & payload is 1600 KG.
    =>LCH is tailor made for High altitude combat. It is among few heli with highest Power to weight ratio(327 W/kg).
    Apache 64E Power to weight ratio is (310 W/KG) but it can carry 2 times more weight than LCH at low altitude.
    Power-to-weight ratio decides the ROC. LCH has the highest power to weight ratio in its category..It beats Chinese Z-10 by 2 times w/o payload and 1.5 times with payload

    =>It beats AH-64E with 1000 kg payload on high altitude while it's par with AH-64E for its payload limit at low altitude.
    .


    Source: http://www.pakistanaffairs.pk/thread...upcoming-beast
    =>Z-10 have slightly better range and speed but its poor for combat operations!

    7. 16 crashes or 16 incidents??
    Many of those crashes wre associated with pilot error, bad weather,enemy fire..Half of those crashed were in altitudes in excess of 4000 meters in places like Siachen , Sikkim..

    8. Indian army chose excalibur/new INSAS version after regressive trials with western competitors-
    --The current version is one of the most reliable assault gun--
    Excalibur gun beat the Beretta ARX 160 from Italy, CZ-805 BREN from Czech Republic, ACE 1 of Israel Weapon Industries, SIG Sauer SG 551 from Switzerland in Winter Leh trials, Desert 50 degree Thar trials!

    army has begun informal trials on the prototype rifles, to eliminate any chance of failing the formal trials when they are held. So rigorous are the army's trials that four of the world's best rifles - Italian company Beretta's ARX-160; the American Colt Combat Rifle; Israel Weapon Industries ACE-1, and the Czech Republic's CA-805 BREN - failed to pass a three-year-long evaluation.

    On his visit to the Rifle Factory, Ishapore (RFI) on Tuesday, Lieutenant General Sanjay Kulkarni, the infantry director general, put the prototype Excalibur through the "water" and "mud" tests, in which the rifle is fired after being fully immersed in those substances. The Excalibur handily passed these tests, which all four foreign rifles had failed to clear.
    http://www.business-standard.com/art...0300012_1.html
    Last edited by Mohan Tiwari; 14th February 2016 at 21:00.

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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Its now just pathetic .....The poor boy is a moron he keeps making stuff up and I just don't have the time to argue with a BJP facist. At this point he is just trolling

    heres the subtitles for the people with brains

    LCA is not working yet. bottom line. 66-vs 0 operational. and they had a 33 years to get it right but failed. It's not operational bottom line. LCA is not operational because INDIA tried to make it.

    Arjun doesn't work and has a long reason why it doesn;t work Indian army doesn't want it or the MK2 no matter how you desperately try to explain it away. development started in 1972 and after all those years you got it wrong and only 124 tanks

    Mk2 similar heaviest tank made and wider and taller than the first one!

    INSAS is a failure that's why Indian army asked others to come forward. bottom line INSAS is being replaced because it is **** and gets people killed

    Dhruv crashes...16 of them

    Bottom line is that all of the products don't work properly after 30 years of development.

    I am not going to reply to you anymore as you are quite clearly a moron
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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Quote Originally Posted by keysersoze View Post
    Its now just pathetic .....The poor boy is a moron he keeps making stuff up and I just don't have the time to argue with a BJP facist. At this point he is just trolling

    heres the subtitles for the people with brains

    LCA is not working yet. bottom line. 66-vs 0 operational. and they had a 33 years to get it right but failed. It's not operational bottom line. LCA is not operational because INDIA tried to make it.

    Arjun doesn't work and has a long reason why it doesn;t work Indian army doesn't want it or the MK2 no matter how you desperately try to explain it away. development started in 1972 and after all those years you got it wrong and only 124 tanks

    Mk2 similar heaviest tank made and wider and taller than the first one!

    INSAS is a failure that's why Indian army asked others to come forward. bottom line INSAS is being replaced because it is **** and gets people killed

    Dhruv crashes...16 of them

    Bottom line is that all of the products don't work properly after 30 years of development.

    I am not going to reply to you anymore as you are quite clearly a moron
    Post of the day!!

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    Re: Tejas Vs JF 17 at airshows.

    Quote Originally Posted by keysersoze View Post
    Its now just pathetic .....The poor boy is a moron he keeps making stuff up and I just don't have the time to argue with a BJP facist. At this point he is just trolling

    heres the subtitles for the people with brains

    LCA is not working yet. bottom line. 66-vs 0 operational. and they had a 33 years to get it right but failed. It's not operational bottom line. LCA is not operational because INDIA tried to make it.

    Arjun doesn't work and has a long reason why it doesn;t work Indian army doesn't want it or the MK2 no matter how you desperately try to explain it away. development started in 1972 and after all those years you got it wrong and only 124 tanks

    Mk2 similar heaviest tank made and wider and taller than the first one!

    INSAS is a failure that's why Indian army asked others to come forward. bottom line INSAS is being replaced because it is **** and gets people killed

    Dhruv crashes...16 of them

    Bottom line is that all of the products don't work properly after 30 years of development.

    I am not going to reply to you anymore as you are quite clearly a moron
    Amazing what fan boys can do with the aid of google.

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