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    F 35 Really!!!!

    ‘Pakistan to get fifth generation fighter jets’ - thenews.com.pk


    ‘Pakistan to get fifth generation fighter jets’
    Muhammad Saleh Zaafir
    - Thursday, December 03, 2015 - From Print Edition

    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will acquire the fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft from the international market but, for the time being, it will devote its full attention on its state-of-the-art JF-17 Thunder to make it the most effective of its generation.

    It has been revealed by Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman while talking exclusively with The News here on Wednesday evening. He said that Pakistan wouldn’t lag behind the countries of the region in obtaining the fifth generation planes and it has opened negotiations with the US manufacturers for exploring options of buying single engine multirole F-35 viewed as the plane of the next decade.

    At least three other options are under consideration. The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) could be equipped with aircraft of fifth generation within five years. Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman said that Indians were buying 126 French Rafale calling them as fifth generation planes but after discussion of years and hitches, they had decided to buy 36 planes at the end of the day and still the deal was in troubled waters.

    “I am not prepared to acknowledge Rafale as a plane of the fifth generation since its features are confined to the fourth generation’s planes,” the CAS maintained.

    He said that Indian Air Force (IAF), despite having a numerical edge, doesn’t have superiority over Pakistan since Pakistan has planned its air strength in a way where no aggression could work against it. The PAF’s devotion and skill is second to none and for the reason it is graded one of the best air powers of the world, he said.

    “We will never let the nation down in any eventuality or test. People have faith in their armed forces and they are very rightly doing so,” he added. He disclosed that Thunder JF-17 was being sold to four countries without disclosing the buyers and number of the planes. He said that it has become difficult to supply all the ordered aircraft within the stipulated time-frame but we will fulfill our obligations.

    The JF-17 to be supplied by Pakistan would be the best in quality as Pakistan wouldn’t compromise on the standards. He said that the operation in the tribal areas was almost complete but some pockets were being cleared.

    Without giving any deadline, he said that the whole area would be cleared of terrorists and their facilitators soon. “No deadline for declaring the end of the operation can be given in such operations since you never know what could sneak in from across the borders. The operation has gone in an excellent way and the PAF did its duty in an exemplary manner.”

    The air chief said that the PAF was also playing its role in the Karachi operation and he had issued instructions afresh today (Wednesday) morning to accelerate its part of activities to curb terrorism.


    Amazing news----
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    And this is what I wrote somewhere else----


    Hi,

    After much thought and deliberation---I have come to the conclusion that PAF should change gears in mid stream and go for a 2 Sqdrn strength of the F 35 initially.

    They should drop the idea for the SU35 or the J11D and go for the JH7B with the upgraded engine and aesa radar.

    But the key over here is the F35----. With the procurement of this aircraft---it can bring some balance to the fire fight and have some strength at its disposal to maintain and manage an aggressive and a defensive power stance---.

    This is an unconventional approach to the problem at hand---. Go for the 5th gen aircraft first and then go back to the 4--- 4.5 gen aircraft---.

    It will also give it enough time to develop the JF 17 blk 3 as well.

    There are a couple of things that have changed-----. [MENTION=9426]Zarvan[/MENTION] brought my attention to a thread started by Usama---I believe---regarding the F15 Silent eagle----with a new configuration of 16 BVR missiles on the wings and underbody with conformal fuel tanks designed by Boeing believe.

    The F 15 would be guided by the F22 and the F 35 towards the target---the same can be done with the JF 17's. If it can be designed to carry 6 BVR missiles---then you have taken care of some of the problems facing the air defense of the country.

    By going for the F 35---you are going to take the initiative away from the enemy. If it was me----I would rather have 2 sqdrn's of F35's than 4 sqdrn's of J11d's or SU35's.

    You guys are being upset at why this change in game plan----why d I keep bringing different scenarios-----. I guess you people might come across some news in the near or distant future.
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    Senior Member Greenstar's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Your assessment seems to be validated sir! Although I would have thought the costings were out of range.
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    Senior Member Fassi's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Your prediction was correction. All those that doubted can now continue to be armchair critics.
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    What a joke and stupidity? Expansive and useless.

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    Senior Member ArshadK's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    And this is what I wrote somewhere else----


    Hi,

    After much thought and deliberation---I have come to the conclusion that PAF should change gears in mid stream and go for a 2 Sqdrn strength of the F 35 initially.

    They should drop the idea for the SU35 or the J11D and go for the JH7B with the upgraded engine and aesa radar.

    But the key over here is the F35----. With the procurement of this aircraft---it can bring some balance to the fire fight and have some strength at its disposal to maintain and manage an aggressive and a defensive power stance---.

    This is an unconventional approach to the problem at hand---. Go for the 5th gen aircraft first and then go back to the 4--- 4.5 gen aircraft---.

    It will also give it enough time to develop the JF 17 blk 3 as well.

    There are a couple of things that have changed-----. [MENTION=9426]Zarvan[/MENTION] brought my attention to a thread started by Usama---I believe---regarding the F15 Silent eagle----with a new configuration of 16 BVR missiles on the wings and underbody with conformal fuel tanks designed by Boeing believe.

    The F 15 would be guided by the F22 and the F 35 towards the target---the same can be done with the JF 17's. If it can be designed to carry 6 BVR missiles---then you have taken care of some of the problems facing the air defense of the country.

    By going for the F 35---you are going to take the initiative away from the enemy. If it was me----I would rather have 2 sqdrn's of F35's than 4 sqdrn's of J11d's or SU35's.

    You guys are being upset at why this change in game plan----why d I keep bringing different scenarios-----. I guess you people might come across some news in the near or distant future.
    Advice regarding elsewhere
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstar View Post
    Your assessment seems to be validated sir! Although I would have thought the costings were out of range.


    Hi,

    Okay---so re-assess it----for the F35----you can use all the munitions that we have for the F16----. F35 is 100 mil-----Eurofighter is around 125 mil and so is the rafale---.

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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ArshadK View Post
    Advice regarding elsewhere
    Hi,

    Thankyou---you are right---. Divorce is never easy.
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Hi,

    After pushing for more F16's, J11D's and SU35 for awhile----I realized that the Rafale is an extremely superior aircraft in the 4-4.5 gen arena---. Plus the electronics and weapons package that accompanies it---would leave many an aircraft in the dust---.

    Paf could have asked for the F16 blk 60/61 to equal the threat of the Rafale---and that would have worked----but then both these aircraft are at par with each other.

    India otoh was stuck deep into the russian 5th gen aircrafty---so it did not have much of a choice---until and unless it made a daring choice-------.

    So---before india made that choice---pakistan has shown its intent for the F35---and that is a master stroke of genius----. If pakistan gets this aircraft---it just cuts the legs off the air superiority of the iaf---.
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION] whilst I am no expert on these matters I certainly would not have dreamed this was a possibility or being thought about. Good call on your part.

    Is it not a worry if we we go for this and even if they get delivered that Pakistan strategic interests and American do not converge in particular making India the regional chaudry and with American containment of China that we could be the subject of American sanctions or am I missing something?
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryan_B View Post
    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION] whilst I am no expert on these matters I certainly would not have dreamed this was a possibility or being thought about. Good call on your part.

    Is it not a worry if we we go for this and even if they get delivered that Pakistan strategic interests and American do not converge in particular making India the regional chaudry and with American containment of China that we could be the subject of American sanctions or am I missing something?


    Hi,

    Thank you----just asking for this aircraft is the game changer---. We are telling the world that we are not an ordinary air force---we have the ability and capability to maintain and mange a fleet of F35's---.

    You also need to look at the coincidence----. Day before yesterday---French agreed to integrate indian missiles into the rafale.

    Yesterday paf releases the news---but the discussions were already done last month
    Last edited by Mastankhan; 3rd December 2015 at 23:12.

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    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Hi,

    Thank you----just asking for this aircraft is the game changer---. We are telling the world that we are not an ordinary air force---we have the ability and capability to maintain and mange a fleet of F35's---.

    You also need to look at the coincidence----. Day before yesterday---French agreed to integrate indian missiles into the rafale.

    Yesterday paf releases the news---but the discussions were already done last month

    F-35 A price on wiki cite 85 mill$. Turkey is level 3 partner,having paid 200 mill$. The cost of each F-35 is set to reach $108 million, meaning Turkey will have to pay over $11 billion for the 100 warplanes.However this figure is set to increase with logistical and maintenance costs.

    The basic F-35A, the take-off and landing model Canada is purchasing, is closer to $115 million which doesnt include spares,munitions & arnaments

    With all the munitions, I don't see F-35 costing anything less than 200 mill$.

    Rafale is costing 230 mill$/piece with 36 Rafale at price of $8.3 bill$. The deal includes training of pilots and technicians, armaments and spares+ Astra integration!
    French had no problems with India using brahmos,Astra or any third party missiles with Rafale’s Thales RBE2 AESA fire-control radar system.

    They have just agreed to integrate only Astra MKI(50-60Km range) and Astra MKII(+100Km range) after India agreed to pay the additional cost for system integration which also requires minimum structural changes to its wing pylons.

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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    F-35 A price on wiki cite 85 mill$. Turkey is level 3 partner,having paid 200 mill$. The cost of each F-35 is set to reach $108 million, meaning Turkey will have to pay over $11 billion for the 100 warplanes.However this figure is set to increase with logistical and maintenance costs.

    The basic F-35A, the take-off and landing model Canada is purchasing, is closer to $115 million which doesnt include spares,munitions & arnaments

    With all the munitions, I don't see F-35 costing anything less than 200 mill$.

    Rafale is costing 230 mill$/piece with 36 Rafale at price of $8.3 bill$. The deal includes training of pilots and technicians, armaments and spares.French had no problems with India using brahmos,Astra or any third party missiles with Rafale’s Thales RBE2 AESA fire-control radar system.

    They agreed to integrate Astra MKI(50-60Km range) and Astra MKII(+100Km range) after India agreed to pay the additional cost for system integration which also requires minimum structural changes to its wing pylons.

    Hi,

    I think you missed the part---we already have munitions for the F35-----all that is used by the F16 can be used by the F35---so the overall cost will be less.
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Hi,

    I think you missed the part---we already have munitions for the F35-----all that is used by the F16 can be used by the F35---so the overall cost will be less.

    The ecosystem is indeed shared minus some spares exclusive to F-35 program.

    F-35A,the basic version will beat Rafale hands down. Dassaut plans to paint 10+out of 36 Rafale in India with some give of trivial outdated technologies for Tejas platform
    such as
    1. Air intake system for the fighter, an undercarriage for the naval variant of the LCA, cutting edge radar absorbing painting technology as well as an integrated production line software and management system for the fighter aircraft.
    2. production of a low-cost variant of the 'Falcon' executive jet for the Indian and Asian markets.
    3. Not to forget the MBDA- DRDL deal for arnaments which might contain some share of work/Tech flow.

    The juicy deals is the only reason for buying Rafale

    India is not hoping for Pak-Fa delivery until 2025. Russia have messed up the project. IAF wants atleast 40 changes to the existing T-50 prototype. AL-41F1 engine cant super-cruise. There is problem with stealth and weapon-carrying capability.

    India will probably buy 100 Pak-Fa at unit price of 230-250 mill$ once these problems are sorted out.
    In return, India should be able to hoping to get access to some Russian technology.

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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Hi,

    I think you missed the part---we already have munitions for the F35-----all that is used by the F16 can be used by the F35---so the overall cost will be less.
    This is just not making sense, and I think you are forwarding a position that you know all too well is a non-starter -- If PAF all the munitions that the F35 can use and the munitions can be used by F16, why then do PAF need to expend additional resources on F35?


    Unfortunately, the line you have been arguing for, namely the Mirage or Dassault miracle, is something the French do not see much future in, from the French point of view long term and more valuable contracts building nuclear facilities are a bigger prize, something Pakistan cannot match.

    Your point about telling the world that we have the ability and capability to operate and maintain F35, in Operational terms means exactly what? what credibility is earned in "ability and capability to operate and maintain", but not afford, F35.

    Earlier you had offered that the public consider whether the PAF was incompetent in it's acquisitions, the knee jerk response of the Chief of Air Staff suggests that if not incompetent, the PAF at least ought to be sober and not react in hysterics in response to every move the IAF and it's suppliers afford it.

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    Senior Member ArshadK's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryan_B View Post
    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION] whilst I am no expert on these matters I certainly would not have dreamed this was a possibility or being thought about. Good call on your part.

    Is it not a worry if we we go for this and even if they get delivered that Pakistan strategic interests and American do not converge in particular making India the regional chaudry and with American containment of China that we could be the subject of American sanctions or am I missing something?
    I would worry about America as a major supplier they have a habit of not supplying us when our need is greatest.

  17. #17
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    India will probably buy 100 Pak-Fa at unit price of 230-250 mill$ once these problems are sorted out.
    In return, India should be able to hoping to get access to some Russian technology.
    Firstly why are you constantly speculating. India will probably bla bla bla. India will self combust the way you predict (hopefully). Secondly who gives a sh1t?

  18. #18
    Member DV RULES's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Interesting, again PAF blunder just like JF-17.
    Billion dollar 'Baby' unacceptable even for producers finds 18 Billion$ foreign reserves thanks to IMF Stupid step father ready to throw huge investment only because in US block.
    How US came to offer Pakistan this White Elephant when refused to export couple of years before?
    PAF will make huge gigantic historic mistake by procuring F-35 without free rights to fly and storage.

  19. #19
    Member DV RULES's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Pakistan should opt for other 5th generation fighter than F-35. Pakistan shouldn't waste investment to unreliable technology exporter.
    Last edited by DV RULES; 4th December 2015 at 19:45.

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    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DV RULES View Post
    JF-17 program costs nearly 10 Billion$, With this amount Pakistan could have acquire more than 120 Twin Engine 4th Generation MRC fighters.

    Because to invest for 'All Weather Friend'.
    JF-17 program cost US$500 million which was entirely spent by China as token of friendship to Pakistan

    Current cost of Tejas program is approx 3 bill$.

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