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Thread: F 35 Really!!!!

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  1. #21
    Member DV RULES's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Yes, mistake in cost calculation.

  2. #22
    Member Mastankhan's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    This is just not making sense, and I think you are forwarding a position that you know all too well is a non-starter -- If PAF all the munitions that the F35 can use and the munitions can be used by F16, why then do PAF need to expend additional resources on F35?


    Unfortunately, the line you have been arguing for, namely the Mirage or Dassault miracle, is something the French do not see much future in, from the French point of view long term and more valuable contracts building nuclear facilities are a bigger prize, something Pakistan cannot match.

    Your point about telling the world that we have the ability and capability to operate and maintain F35, in Operational terms means exactly what? what credibility is earned in "ability and capability to operate and maintain", but not afford, F35.

    Earlier you had offered that the public consider whether the PAF was incompetent in it's acquisitions, the knee jerk response of the Chief of Air Staff suggests that if not incompetent, the PAF at least ought to be sober and not react in hysterics in response to every move the IAF and it's suppliers afford it.


    Hi,

    It is the aircraft and what it can do---that is what paf is looking for----.

    Pappy---I am a car salesman---my perception and comments are based on a car salesman mentality----where as much as I disagree---there is nothing written in stone----you know why----you never know when the customer is going to say yes----.

    I push and prod---and that is the name of the game.

    The question here is not of affording the F35---the question here is take the enemy head on or just fold up your military and wave the white flag----.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Pakistan can procure 5th gen fighter 4-5yrs before india receives pak-fa if indian govt okay the deal
    Anyway the T50 FOC Is delayed to 2025.

    There is a thread running on it.Next prototype ll come around n 2018.
    I don't support any import of such hitech weapons. I wish the program shuts down and india stops buying junk Russian fighters post 2025.

  4. #24
    Think Tank Muse's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Hi,

    The question here is not of affording the F35---the question here is take the enemy head on or just fold up your military and wave the white flag----.
    I appreciate the spirit in which you offer your posts -- and I also follow and admire the ethic of taking on the enemy/adversary head on, however, in this particular situation in the sub-continent, because both are nuclear powers, Pakistan ought to have the ability to defend itself, but taking on the enemy head on, may not be the brightest option, certainly the capability to do so, particularly the industrial capability to put ambition into reality is appreciated, but seems to me that there is no reason to hasten doomsday - The state may build the capacity and capability, beyond the IAF threat, certainly, but no point in waving a red flag at the bull - there are any number of ways to skin a cat, Pakistan's weakness is not her armed forces, but rather it's political structure and the unwillingness to allow Pakistani citizens to participate in the building of the economy of Pakistan.

    I would suggest that F35 for the PAF would be a disaster in the making for Pakistan, and indeed for the US - the relationship remains fragile and is unlikely to stabilize in the near five to ten years, which is a very, very long time especially since it seems we must all prepare for "Son of Global War on Terror", same story, same actors, same results, but apparently Western public have an appetite for it, even as it is clear to anyone who is willing to see beyond the horrific imagery, that it is both a trap for Western powers and for Muslim Majorities.
    The Following User Says Thank You to Muse For This Useful Post: Mastankhan


  5. #25
    Member Mastankhan's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    I appreciate the spirit in which you offer your posts -- and I also follow and admire the ethic of taking on the enemy/adversary head on, however, in this particular situation in the sub-continent, because both are nuclear powers, Pakistan ought to have the ability to defend itself, but taking on the enemy head on, may not be the brightest option, certainly the capability to do so, particularly the industrial capability to put ambition into reality is appreciated, but seems to me that there is no reason to hasten doomsday - The state may build the capacity and capability, beyond the IAF threat, certainly, but no point in waving a red flag at the bull - there are any number of ways to skin a cat, Pakistan's weakness is not her armed forces, but rather it's political structure and the unwillingness to allow Pakistani citizens to participate in the building of the economy of Pakistan.

    I would suggest that F35 for the PAF would be a disaster in the making for Pakistan, and indeed for the US - the relationship remains fragile and is unlikely to stabilize in the near five to ten years, which is a very, very long time especially since it seems we must all prepare for "Son of Global War on Terror", same story, same actors, same results, but apparently Western public have an appetite for it, even as it is clear to anyone who is willing to see beyond the horrific imagery, that it is both a trap for Western powers and for Muslim Majorities.

    Hi,

    Thing that is misunderstood by the pakistan air force is that as deep they go into the defencive mode---bigger their problems will grow and the nation will bethreatened more and more.

    Currently---all pakistan can threaten is the punjab states close to the border and sindh states on the other side----. See---India does not give diddley sh-it about those states----they are to be sacrificed in case of a war.

    It is the under belly of hindustan that needs to be targetted----state of maharashtra---mumbai poona---with standoff weapons and AS missiles----destroy the trade hub of india and let us see for how long it would want to take on the war cry.

    That is why pakistan needs heavy strike aircraft like the JH7B's----that can fly around 2000 + miles and can carry a heavy load---which wjhen release would take out the mumbai harbor and other industrial sites----with air launched babur cruise missile---which could fly arpound 1200-1400 km----you can create massive panic in the soft under belly of india---from where plane loads of foreigners would be flying out-----alongwith their investments---.

    So---basically---the F35 is to be purchased as a complimentary aircraft----.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION]

    Pakistan air force had air superiority in 1965 bcoz of sabre f86 while India were using 2nd world war Hunters.

    F-35A should be good asset for Pakistan offensive capability.

    F-35's RCS wthout weapon from front is 0.005 Meter Square which is equal to an object of Dimensions(0.0707,0.0707) Meter
    Length = Breadth = 7.07 CM= 2.78 Inch which is the size of a golf ball. In terms of power loss RCS From the front, is -30 dBm2

    Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...rcraft-rcs.htm

    if you have two radars at distance of few KM then you can see from front and sideways.

    RCS of unarmed F-35 will rise up by 100 times to 0.5 meter square if viewed from side ways. There is no radar blocker for the engine exhaust." [Aviation Week & Space Technology; 11/14/2005, page 27]


    http://aess.cs.unh.edu/Radar%202010%...ection%201.pdf
    I was seeing if the Indian version of Greenpine aka Swordfish can detect F-35.

    The Swordfish LRTR currently has a range of 600 km (370 mi)-800 km (500 mi) km range and can spot objects as small as a cricket ball (3-inches in diameter), which the DRDO is in the process of upgrading it to 1,500 km.

    Which gives it RCS of = (3inch x 3 inch)= (0.0762 Meter x 0.0762Meter) = 0.005 SqMeter

    F-35 with external weapons would have RCS of 0.1 SqMeter from front head and more than 1 sqMeter from side ways.


    In the worst case: Greenpine EL/M-2080 ~Indian Swordfish RCS to have RCS 0.1 SQMeter =0.316 Meter x 0.316 Meter = 31.6 CM
    Swordfish radar is 3-4 more powerful than Russian S-400 Radar which claims to detect F-35.
    EL/M-2080S super greenpine can see small ball up to range of 800-900 KM.

    The Latest Indian ISRO Multi object tracking Radar(MOTR) made completely indigenous with help of Indian companies(w/o any support from Israel ELTA Greenpine and DRDO sworfish) uses 4608T/R modules. It can track 10 object of 30 cm x 30 cm at distance of 800 Km

    source: http://www.capsindia.org/files/docum...ocus_AS2_2.pdf

    In short, Indian swordfish in today's date can detect F-35 from range of 600 KM.

    The current planned Elta EL/M-2248 MF-STAR radar which is being used in Barak-8 LRSAM can also detect object of very low RCS(0.1 SQMeter > RCS- F-35 with weapons).

    Israel's Elta at concluded Paris airshow unveiled an Advance UHF AESA radar system which it claims has been designed to search, detect and track air-breathing targets including low observable aircraft’s missiles and even ballistic missiles.
    New Family of Ultra UHF radars can work with earlier warning assets and can support radar systems like Green pine or Super green pine Radar systems in improving early warning of all types of threats including stealth aircrafts.

    Source: http://idrw.org/counter-stealth-and-indias-efforts/


    DRDO is also working on VHF radars. Stealth technologies don't have the desired effect at extremely low frequencies(VHF)

    Indian next Gen AWACS will detect all flying object including stealth subjects with range of >400 KM. They will be due in 5-7 yrs.
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/46731380.cms


    1. F-35 is not going to add any much advantage to Pakistan if it plans to induct them post 2022.

    India will have installed web of Barak-8 LRSAM on large scale.

    2. By 2020, India plans to install AAD,PAD interceptor. AAD intercetor will have range of 150-200 Km while PAD Will have range of 250 Km.
    Such BMD which will probably use some type of Indian version of next gen Swordfish Long range tracking radar combined with stealth feature VHF radar(with some intake from ELTA
    Last edited by Mohan Tiwari; 5th December 2015 at 05:47.

  7. #27
    Member Mastankhan's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION]

    Pakistan air force had air superiority in 1965 bcoz of sabre f86 while India were using 2nd world war Hunters.

    F-35A should be good asset for Pakistan offensive capability.

    F-35's RCS wthout weapon from front is 0.005 Meter Square which is equal to an object of Dimensions(0.0707,0.0707) Meter
    Length = Breadth = 7.07 CM= 2.78 Inch which is the size of a golf ball. In terms of power loss RCS From the front, is -30 dBm2

    Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...rcraft-rcs.htm

    if you have two radars at distance of few KM then you can see from front and sideways.

    RCS of unarmed F-35 will rise up by 100 times to 0.5 meter square if viewed from side ways. There is no radar blocker for the engine exhaust." [Aviation Week & Space Technology; 11/14/2005, page 27]


    http://aess.cs.unh.edu/Radar%202010%...ection%201.pdf
    I was seeing if the Indian version of Greenpine aka Swordfish can detect F-35.

    The Swordfish LRTR currently has a range of 600 km (370 mi)-800 km (500 mi) km range and can spot objects as small as a cricket ball (3-inches in diameter), which the DRDO is in the process of upgrading it to 1,500 km.

    Which gives it RCS of = (3inch x 3 inch)= (0.0762 Meter x 0.0762Meter) = 0.005 SqMeter

    F-35 with external weapons would have RCS of 0.1 SqMeter from front head and more than 1 sqMeter from side ways.


    In the worst case: Greenpine EL/M-2080 ~Indian Swordfish RCS to have RCS 0.1 SQMeter =0.316 Meter x 0.316 Meter = 31.6 CM
    Swordfish radar is 3-4 more powerful than Russian S-400 Radar which claims to detect F-35.
    EL/M-2080S super greenpine can see small ball up to range of 800-900 KM.

    The Latest Indian ISRO Multi object tracking Radar(MOTR) made completely indigenous with help of Indian companies(w/o any support from Israel ELTA Greenpine and DRDO sworfish) uses 4608T/R modules. It can track 10 object of 30 cm x 30 cm at distance of 800 Km

    source: http://www.capsindia.org/files/docum...ocus_AS2_2.pdf

    In short, Indian swordfish in today's date can detect F-35 from range of 600 KM.

    The current planned Elta EL/M-2248 MF-STAR radar which is being used in Barak-8 LRSAM can also detect object of very low RCS(0.1 SQMeter > RCS- F-35 with weapons).

    Israel's Elta at concluded Paris airshow unveiled an Advance UHF AESA radar system which it claims has been designed to search, detect and track air-breathing targets including low observable aircraft’s missiles and even ballistic missiles.
    New Family of Ultra UHF radars can work with earlier warning assets and can support radar systems like Green pine or Super green pine Radar systems in improving early warning of all types of threats including stealth aircrafts.

    Source: http://idrw.org/counter-stealth-and-indias-efforts/


    DRDO is also working on VHF radars. Stealth technologies don't have the desired effect at extremely low frequencies(VHF)

    Indian next Gen AWACS will detect all flying object including stealth subjects with range of >400 KM. They will be due in 5-7 yrs.
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/46731380.cms


    1. F-35 is not going to add any much advantage to Pakistan if it plans to induct them post 2022.

    India will have installed web of Barak-8 LRSAM on large scale.

    2. By 2020, India plans to install AAD,PAD interceptor. AAD intercetor will have range of 150-200 Km while PAD Will have range of 250 Km.
    Such BMD which will probably use some type of Indian version of next gen Swordfish Long range tracking radar combined with stealth feature VHF radar(with some intake from ELTA

    Just copy and paste---and actually you have no clue about the game plan.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Just copy and paste---and actually you have no clue about the game plan.
    2 squadron of F-35 is not going to change anything in region. India will have added many advanced VHF radars & air defense in next 5-10 yrs. Jf-35 sales are reserved till 2022.

    ISRO will be delivering 3.3 tons satellites into space from its home made launcher from 2016 onwards.

    They ll launch panchrontic and mutlispectral resolution satellites with large Swath width(32-64KM). Not to forget SAR satellites

    In a decade or so, they will be able to monitor missile launch & air craft take off from most parts of Pakistan. Pakistan Submarines would be the only asset which wont be traceable

    No country can claim air superiority with costly imported weapons. Rafale. Su30 MKI, Pak-Fa were not just bought to build Indian defense but to get some consutancy support, some cheap TOT which will help India speed up Tejas MKII, AMCA programs.

    1. French is giving us 4-5 gen cutting edge radar absorbing painting technology in return for Rafale deal!
    They will also provide some consultancy support for Naval tejas
    2. India is planning to order for Su30 while Russian OEM is ready to use Indian components.
    http://www.defenseworld.net/news/147...ke_in_India___

    Russia has expressed willingness to transfer technology of 332 components of the Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter aircraft under the ‘Make-in-India’ program.

    These components, also called line replacement units (LRUs) refer to both critical and non-critical components and fall into four major heads such as Radio and Radar; Electrical & Electronics System; Mechanical System and Instrument System.
    Indians dont even support deal like S-400 blindly. Why give free doles to Russia for nothing in return. IF that deal comes with some tech transfer in Liquid fuel ramjet( Indian LFRJ engine have low specific impuse ), solid duct ramjet technology then I will support S-400 purchase!!

    But we can understand that Pak will buy F-35 with the money American doled out to Pak in last 15 yrs


    3. I personally feel that Pakistan is not going to purchase F-35. Your country is negotiating China for Jf-17 tech transfer. China have put some conditions for transfer if Pak manages to procule sale of 100+JF-17 to third party customers then they will part away with some technologies. Pakistan probably wants to work on future version of JF-17 or get complete license to manufacture J11 or Atleast get some TOT of JF-17 technology

  9. #29
    Member Mastankhan's Avatar
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    Re: F 35 Really!!!!

    [MENTION=9415]Mohan Tiwari[/MENTION]

    Thank you.

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