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Thread: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

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    A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Hi,

    Many a people people and professionals are of the feeling that the delay in the mmrca deal has given paf some breathing room to decide what they want to get and many of them think that the delay is good for Pakistan.

    To the contrary---the delay in mmrca deal is a successful sabotage on the procurement of an aircraft by the Pakistan air force by the indian planners.

    Even though Iaf may have lesser numbers---it still has a higher number of potent aircraft in its fleet to face the challenge and take the battle into the house of the enemy.

    The lack of mmrca does not hurt india---but rather strengthen its position---because paf has blundered into not making the procurement of an air superiority fighter that they desperately need and waiting for the finalization of mmrca to see which direction they want to go.

    If the paf had gone with the J10B's in 2012 as it was offered with a complete package out of existing stock by the Chinese----paf would have been by now 2 / 3rds of the way into integrating that aircraft into the existing system and getting their pilots upto date on that machine.

    But no---paf decided to chase the 8 ball---and in the process it got way behind of its target of achieving some kind of parity on the air superiority front.

    Paf used to be a pro-active air force---but in the last many years---it has become more of a reactive air force---. Instead of leading from the front---it is waiting to be lead and guided into what direction that it needs to go----it is like a cow lost in a pasture.

    Who knows better than the paf that if its funds are not spent in a timely manner---they will be used in other places by someone else.

    Seems like there is a lack of leadership in the air force in the top brass---a lack of focus---a lack of direction and a will to take charge and do something.
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    Senior Member Express's Avatar
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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Who would you hold directly responsible for this sir?

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Pakistan could add more F-16s or potentially add more JF-17 block2 and block3.
    Unfortunately I here reports that the new JH-7B engine is at the primary stages and wont be in potential production until early 2019 [MENTION=43]safriz[/MENTION] [MENTION=50]Neo[/MENTION]
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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstar View Post
    Pakistan could add more F-16s or potentially add more JF-17 block2 and block3.
    Unfortunately I here reports that the new JH-7B engine is at the primary stages and wont be in potential production until early 2019 [MENTION=43]safriz[/MENTION] [MENTION=50]Neo[/MENTION]
    I think it will be ready early 2018

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Am perturbed that one sitting in front of a computer one can come to this conclusion. The PAF should and deserve more respect in their way of thinking. I believe the PAF is well equipped in its forward planning and taking into consideration its budget, does exceptionally well in pre planning the requirements.
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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pak92 View Post
    Am perturbed that one sitting in front of a computer one can come to this conclusion. The PAF should and deserve more respect in their way of thinking. I believe the PAF is well equipped in its forward planning and taking into consideration its budget, does exceptionally well in pre planning the requirements.
    Agree. Give them some credit.

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pak92 View Post
    Am perturbed that one sitting in front of a computer one can come to this conclusion. The PAF should and deserve more respect in their way of thinking. I believe the PAF is well equipped in its forward planning and taking into consideration its budget, does exceptionally well in pre planning the requirements.

    Hi,

    Thank you for your post----. Basically the proof is in the pudding----since the 80's---it is one bad mistake after the other---.

    And as I have written many a times---the choice of going after the number one fighter aircraft in the world ( F16 )was a FATAL & STRATEGIC mistake of the PAF.

    The strategic choice was the Mirage 2000---paf already operating a large fleet of mirage 3/5's----plus the procurement of mirage 2k would have stopped india to buy that aircraft---and F16 was not available to india.

    Next----the blown up deals during the 90's for the F 16's---used and refurbished F1's and new mirage 2000's-----then around 2000---again refurbished deal for mirage 2000-----then dropping the rafale in 2003---going for the F16 and then cancelling the number of aircraft in 2005 believing that the threat of war has subsided so no reason to go for the 72 F16's----.

    Then again blowing up the deal for the emirati M2K9's around 2006---2010.

    Depending too much on their capability to develop the JF17 on a fastrak basis and not realizing that it would take them a long time to integrate---and other issues may arise.

    Not understanding the death of the french engineers at karachi and not going hard after the culprits.

    Some of you who were on the other board would remember that I would suggest that it would take around 8---10 years to integrate the JF17.

    I think that it is going to be more like 10--15 years now.

    I firmly believe that the paf took too many things for granted and believed too much in itself---. Instead of promising less and delivering more---out of inherited arrogance---it chose to promise more---thus delivering less.

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Express View Post
    Who would you hold directly responsible for this sir?


    Hi,

    Off course the air force----that is what a part of their job was----funds were available---. It was just like a father giving a .22 rifle to his kid with 1 bullet and told him ' son---now go hunt----bring some food---otherwise the family is going to starve '----and the son started jacking off with his buddies about the gun and the bullet and there is no meat on the table at dinner time.

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    We would all be better served if we all had a better understanding of PAF procurement procedures, and if we may acknowledge that PAF, like any other institution in Pakistan has not had the level of transparency in procurement as we might all want, nor accountability, nor freedom from politicizing and monetizing these decisions, politicians and the commission earning business entities continue to keep matters opaque.

    To clarify and understand the procurement decisions, procedure and political context is necessary to comment in a informed manner.

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    We would all be better served if we all had a better understanding of PAF procurement procedures, and if we may acknowledge that PAF, like any other institution in Pakistan has not had the level of transparency in procurement as we might all want, nor accountability, nor freedom from politicizing and monetizing these decisions, politicians and the commission earning business entities continue to keep matters opaque.

    To clarify and understand the procurement decisions, procedure and political context is necessary to comment in a informed manner.


    Hi,

    Air force is not going to tell us its procurement procedure----but what is obvious is that it has been taken over by the fighter mafia----. So---the bombers which are now called strike aircraft have disappeared----.

    Current strike aircraft take upa load 2-3 times more than those of the past aircraft----so when our previous aicraft the A5 Fantan which could carryy 3000KG load--its true replacement was to be an aircraft carrying 8-10000 kg load and not one with 4500kg capability----.
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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION]

    Pakistan Air Force needs air superiority fighters and tactical bombers to keep Indians at bay. We are relying too much on a single aircraft to do everything for us. It's unsustainable and will keep us on the defensive at in the developing times ahead.
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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Latif View Post
    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION]

    Pakistan Air Force needs air superiority fighters and tactical bombers to keep Indians at bay. We are relying too much on a single aircraft to do everything for us. It's unsustainable and will keep us on the defensive at in the developing times ahead.


    Hi,

    If you look at he type of aircraft during 1965 and 1971---we had deicated bombers in our fleet. The B57 bomber of that time could carry the same load as a multirole small fighter of today ie---around 4000kg.

    But that was a 2nd gen aircraft---now we re at 4 and 4.5 gen aircraft----which means---our primary aircraft----needs to be carrying 8---10000 kg load.

    If you look at the japanese----they liked the F16---but for them---the F16 was a tad bit too small---so they designed their own aircraft based on the F16----and it is the mitsubishi F2----with a load carrying capacity of around 8000kg---more than the F16---.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	f16.png 
Views:	23 
Size:	6.3 KB 
ID:	8213

    OTOH---we have gone smaller from our baseline aicraft---the F16---.
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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    With rocket artillery and Ballistic missiles, why does Pakistan need Bombers?? Lets not use "Bombers", it's not the right word, "as [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION] offers, "Strike" is a acceptable term -- So are Strike aircraft necessary?? One can argue that Ballistic missiles up the ante, the adversary cannot be sure that the ballistic missile is not carrying a conventional payload and may calculate that he is in a "use'em or lose'em" situation.

    It seems to me that we will on all sides be stuck in our positions and not be able to move to a better understanding without first understanding how procurement works, imagine, if we are as uninformed, are members of Majlis similarly, ill-informed??

    [MENTION=9549]Latif[/MENTION] has offered that Pakistan are relying too much on the F-16 - Friends, lets be cognizant of a basic, a fundamental issue, so long as Pakistan is Muslim and Nuclear, it is not a qualified customer for much of Western armaments - Therefore instead of talking about buying platforms, Pakistanis should be building the foundations of an industrial Defense armament design, testing and manufacturing capability, many successful endeavors have small, humble beginnings.

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    With rocket artillery and Ballistic missiles, why does Pakistan need Bombers?? Lets not use "Bombers", it's not the right word, "as [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION] offers, "Strike" is a acceptable term -- So are Strike aircraft necessary?? One can argue that Ballistic missiles up the ante, the adversary cannot be sure that the ballistic missile is not carrying a conventional payload and may calculate that he is in a "use'em or lose'em" situation.

    It seems to me that we will on all sides be stuck in our positions and not be able to move to a better understanding without first understanding how procurement works, imagine, if we are as uninformed, are members of Majlis similarly, ill-informed??

    [MENTION=9549]Latif[/MENTION] has offered that Pakistan are relying too much on the F-16 - Friends, lets be cognizant of a basic, a fundamental issue, so long as Pakistan is Muslim and Nuclear, it is not a qualified customer for much of Western armaments - Therefore instead of talking about buying platforms, Pakistanis should be building the foundations of an industrial Defense armament design, testing and manufacturing capability, many successful endeavors have small, humble beginnings.


    Hi,

    Pakistan could get the Rafale by hooking up with Emirates----and can also get the 70 emirati M2K9's as well----a total coupe de grace.

    Eurofighter is also available----.

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Hi,

    Pakistan could get the Rafale by hooking up with Emirates----and can also get the 70 emirati M2K9's as well----a total coupe de grace.

    Eurofighter is also available----.
    Please explain - what is "hooking up" with Emirates? What does it actually mean? Are you aware of the statement of the Emirati foreign minister seeking to PUNISH Pakistan for not providing cannon fodder in the Yemen?? No Western equipment is available without the threat of sanctions - how many times does Pakistan have to experience sanctions before it learns?

    You offer Rafale and Eurofighter as if these are not just panacea but have actually been offered in a way that Pakistan can accept - what about these offers do you know that the rest ought to know as well?

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    Please explain - what is "hooking up" with Emirates? What does it actually mean? Are you aware of the statement of the Emirati foreign minister seeking to PUNISH Pakistan for not providing cannon fodder in the Yemen?? No Western equipment is available without the threat of sanctions - how many times does Pakistan have to experience sanctions before it learns?

    You offer Rafale and Eurofighter as if these are not just panacea but have actually been offered in a way that Pakistan can accept - what about these offers do you know that the rest ought to know as well?
    Hi,

    I heard that statement---but still it is only pakistan military that will come to their rescue---so it is in the larger deal where the interests coincide----.

    But then you have an interesting news today---re F35

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Latif View Post
    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION]

    Pakistan Air Force needs air superiority fighters and tactical bombers to keep Indians at bay. We are relying too much on a single aircraft to do everything for us. It's unsustainable and will keep us on the defensive at in the developing times ahead.
    Most countries managw with 1 so why is Pakistan different?

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Hi,

    If you look at he type of aircraft during 1965 and 1971---we had deicated bombers in our fleet. The B57 bomber of that time could carry the same load as a multirole small fighter of today ie---around 4000kg.

    But that was a 2nd gen aircraft---now we re at 4 and 4.5 gen aircraft----which means---our primary aircraft----needs to be carrying 8---10000 kg load.

    If you look at the japanese----they liked the F16---but for them---the F16 was a tad bit too small---so they designed their own aircraft based on the F16----and it is the mitsubishi F2----with a load carrying capacity of around 8000kg---more than the F16---.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	f16.png 
Views:	23 
Size:	6.3 KB 
ID:	8213

    OTOH---we have gone smaller from our baseline aicraft---the F16---.
    Does size really matter? Is it significant with todays technology?

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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Hi,

    I heard that statement---but still it is only pakistan military that will come to their rescue---so it is in the larger deal where the interests coincide----.

    But then you have an interesting news today---re F35

    The F35 deal, should it ever materialize, is going to be similar to the F16 deal - a tale of sorrow for Pakistanis - but I suppose those who refuse to learn get opportunities to learn over and over again; such people do not deserve our best wishes, rather our sympathy.
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    Re: A Delay In MMRCA Is Not a Blessings For Pakistan Air Force Source:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Hi,

    Pakistan could get the Rafale by hooking up with Emirates----and can also get the 70 emirati M2K9's as well----a total coupe de grace.

    Eurofighter is also available----.
    Do you think the Saudi will allow this? Don't think so.

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