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Thread: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

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    PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Hi,

    For the last 30 plus years I have been hearing these words that the Pakistan's air force's doctrine is defensive in nature. And every time it raises the level of concern that I have for my motherland as if something does not sound right.

    Because I know very well---that my navy----the ones with the least amount of budget and no show pomp and strut---they sent their men 2500 miles away to strike at the heat of the enemy's mighty ships in their little submarine. Even though they failed in their venture but they died in the far away backyard of the enemy heartland---nothing can glorify a death like dying in the enemy's backyard---so far away from your base---in anonymity to this day---we don't know the whole truth except that they laid down their lives on distant shores and are not with us anymore.

    Because I know---that our army---the one that faces the wrath of the nation every 10 to 12 years---it also sent its soldiers across of the borders---and even though the things did not go well for them----and many of them died---but so many of them died on the other side of the border in the enemy territory----in the enemy's front yard---and that is no small achievement for a small army.

    And then I hear about this doctrine----from our supposedly, the most cherished arm of our military wing---who claim to be the best of the best in the world---the military arm that struts around in arrogance and bravado---and preens around everywhere like Peacocks in heat----that they want to stay home and fight the battles on the home turf----basically what they are saying is that we will bring the enemy home---the enemy will destroy us and thus destroy the rest of the infra structure----.

    This is called the defensive air combat doctrine---where out of fear or incompetence or for whatever reasons you do not have the ability to strike at the enemy deep in its own woods---this doctrine is also know as the doctrine of cowardice.

    But how did it start---how did we get from an offensive air force to the one fighting with the tail between our legs.

    Well---like everything else---it started with incompetence at the top during the 1971 war----. The afghan war brought an opportune moment for the Pakistan air force---sanctions were off---and PAF had the option to buy different aircraft----. Being a French aircraft dominant air force---it should have by default stayed with the French---goinf rom Mirage 3/5 to Mirage F1 and then Mirage 2000.

    But during the war---it got the carrot dangled in front of it--the fabled F16----. On the other side was the Mirage 2000---on a given day each aircraft could outdo the other. The PAF BLUNDERED into buying the F16---and it left the gate open for its arch enemy to buy the supposedly number 2 aircraft.

    Indian air force was woefully equipped at that time---it only had Russian aircraft as its primary fighter aircraft.

    PAF thru its blunder---allowed the indian air force to purchase the Mirage 2000---and gave the enemy parity in the battlefield in the skies----.

    PAF lies that it needed the F16's to fight afghan air force----now we know that was not right---. The mirage 3 were well equipped to take on the afghan air force---as was the case in the first couple of afghan planes shot down by the mirages---.

    If the PAF had rejected the F 16----the indian air force would not have been able to buy the mirage 2000---because the Pakistan would have been the primary buyer.

    Then came the sanctions and another opportunity to buy mirage 2000----and the supposedly honest sec def of Pakistan rejected the deal because there was too much graft in that deal.

    So---what was the big deal about the graft---100 million---200 million---in the fortunes of nations---this amount is not even peanuts. This purchase would have given us back our parity over our arch enemy India.

    This blunder was a nail in the coffin of a prestigious air force which got destroyed by the actions of an HONEST OFFICER.

    Then came 9/11 and lifting of sanctions---PAF now has the funds to purchase an aircraft on a fastrak to fill up the gap that had widened over the years---but we forget to realize is that this was not the same fighting force of the mid 60----this was a force that had ROT set in its roots---the solid frame had been eaten by the termites---it was force in show only and the GUTS belonged to men long dead lying in their graves.

    The 4 years after 9/11 were lost in jumping from one plane to the other---acting totally clueless like a kid in the candy store with pocket full of money wants to buy every thing and ends up buying nothing.

    The primary target of the air force like any other force was to procure and aircraft that can match the front line enemy aircraft one on one and come out ahead. So that the enemy does not pose a threat to strike and create instability in the country----.
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Good to have you back Sir.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    No doubt things could have been better but relative to Indian fiasco with procurement despite having a larger budget gives me hope that not all is lost
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    PAF surely needs a Doctrine re-think but there is some sense in this all.
    Their Aircraft buying strategy is the something similar to what the swedes did after observing Soviet-Finland war. In 1940 when USSR invaded Finland it was no match and Finnish could not defend and receded. Later waged guerrilla warfare and won.
    Sweden was under threat from USSR and knew they wont be able to stop a massive onslaught and will have to allow the soviets to over run the country. Once they have reached some distance,then the swedes can come out of the shadows,cut off supply lines,and surround enemy forces. Thats why Swedes built a small plane the Grippen. So that it can be hidden away in forests with small resources and staff and yet it can fly and take on the enemy.
    A similar doctrine has prevailed among PAF after 1971.Before 1971 we could engage India from East and west,distributing their resources and stretching them out. Once BD was gone we couldnt be an offensive force,just defensive because of size and number advantage of India and swedish doctrine applied. Thats why PAF has no large twin engine jets, just small jets that can take off from small runways or public highways.
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    A morphed form of the same "Swedish Doctrine" is reflected in Pakistani Nuclear doctrine too. Pakistan will allow Indian forces to roll in Unopposed for significant distance. Then Irradiate escape route while engaging Indian forces on own territory. For all the Indian claims,India wont be able to launch the so called "massive retaliation" even after Pakistan has used TNW as India will kill their own soldiers if the do so,

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    A morphed form of the same "Swedish Doctrine" is reflected in Pakistani Nuclear doctrine too. Pakistan will allow Indian forces to roll in Unopposed for significant distance. Then Irradiate escape route while engaging Indian forces on own territory. For all the Indian claims,India wont be able to launch the so called "massive retaliation" even after Pakistan has used TNW as India will kill their own soldiers if the do so,
    India's cold start doctrine are in response to terror strikes from ISI and other state actors such as LeT

    http://www.pakistanaffairs.pk/thread...media%E2%80%99

    Cold start doctrine puts enough pressure on Pakistan to not repeat 26/11 attack.

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    About why PAF went with F-16 instead of Mirage 2000,there can be many arguments in favor and against both,but looking the the stats. F-16 is today's most numerous fighter Jet active with world air forces and comprises 15% of the world's total fighter jet count.

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    A morphed form of the same "Swedish Doctrine" is reflected in Pakistani Nuclear doctrine too. Pakistan will allow Indian forces to roll in Unopposed for significant distance. Then Irradiate escape route while engaging Indian forces on own territory. For all the Indian claims,India wont be able to launch the so called "massive retaliation" even after Pakistan has used TNW as India will kill their own soldiers if the do so,
    Let's take an example: Indian forces take Lahore. How would this irradiation tactic and TNWs work in this area?

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by VCheng View Post
    Let's take an example: Indian forces take Lahore. How would this irradiation tactic and TNWs work in this area?
    escape route will be in the deserts?

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by VCheng View Post
    Let's take an example: Indian forces take Lahore. How would this irradiation tactic and TNWs work in this area?
    Lahore attack will result into full fledged war. Sindh, Thar is the primal target for swift,decisive and fast gains. Cold start doctrine also helped Indian armed force justify their budget increases.
    There is low likelidhood for practical usage of such doctrine but Having such doctorine in place provide deterrence & diverts Pakistan resources and attention from kashmir to defense of it's main land territory.

    http://www.storypick.com/indian-army-exercise/

    50,000 Soldiers Are Training At Indo-Pak Border In The Largest Exercise Of The Indian Army
    The Indian Army is a source of pride for all of us. Be it in the frosty Siachen or the hilly terrain of Arunachal, the men in olive green are protecting us while we relax in our cosy home.

    And now…

    The focus is on ensuring a high degree of physical fitness, tactical drills, techniques and building military capabilities to counter the evolving threats.

    What’s so special about this drill?
    – This is the country’s largest ever military exercise.
    – Apart from testing its warheads, heavy artillery and drone planes in real war-like situation, it will also be testing how fit and prepared our Army is.
    – The military exercise, named ‘Baaz Gati’ will have 50,000 army men taking part.
    – This is the first time this big an exercise is happening in India.
    – Brahmos missile will be on trial for the first time ever.
    – 21 Strike Corps from Bhopal and Jodhpur is a part of this millitary drill.

    But, why is this important?
    – Because, Pakistan and China have done such exercises since 2011 on the borders.
    – Also because so many troops will take part in the military exercise together.
    – And as per as the protocol exchanged with Pakistan, they have been notified and given details.


    How is this happening?
    – Bhopal-based 21 Corps, one of three main ‘strike corps’ is practicing how to enter enemy territory.
    – The Jodhpur Desert Corps are testing their defense skills.
    – The whole military exercise is network-centric and being operated from war room and mobile.
    – The army satellites, real-time intelligence, radar and drones are being tested which can be used to attack enemy territory.


    The difficulties they are facing.
    – Modernisation was a major problem, but they somehow overcame it.
    – Managing tanks, helicopters, weapons and arms together is not an easy task.

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    escape route will be in the deserts?
    There are no deserts around Lahore, and it is less than 10 miles from the border.

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    Lahore attack will result into full fledged war. Sindh, Thar is the primal target for swift,decisive and fast gains. Cold start doctrine also helped Indian armed force justify their budget increases.
    There is low likelidhood for practical usage of such doctrine but Having such doctorine in place provide deterrence & diverts Pakistan resources and attention from kashmir to defense of it's main land territory.

    The point is that TNWs cannot be used effectively in important areas.

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by VCheng View Post
    The point is that TNWs cannot be used effectively in important areas.
    As a status quo power, India doesn't want to engage in any war but Conventional superiority backed by offensive Cold start doctrine, Integrated Space cell and Missile ballistic defense force Pakistan to give up the revisionist position on Kashmir.

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by VCheng View Post
    Let's take an example: Indian forces take Lahore. How would this irradiation tactic and TNWs work in this area?
    We will never know for certain until it happens. No country so far has been foolish enough to invade a nuclear power who has nukes or TNW to test out what would happen.

    Notwithstanding that lets say that India is foolish enough or "brave" enough

    In the first instance why would Pakistan allow the enemy to take Lahore. You would nuke them as they built their forces and started the invasion and you would I assume use them to the rear of the invading forces preferably and most likely in Indian territory.

    But of course any concentration of Indian forces and military installations including but not limited to military airports once again hopefully mostly at the Indian side.

    I see no difference in using low yield TNW to heavy conventional bombing say as in Dresden in the second world war.

    Its no more humane to kill with a knife than a nuke

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Hi,

    For the last 30 plus years I have been hearing these words that the Pakistan's air force's doctrine is defensive in nature. And every time it raises the level of concern that I have for my motherland as if something does not sound right.

    Because I know very well---that my navy----the ones with the least amount of budget and no show pomp and strut---they sent their men 2500 miles away to strike at the heat of the enemy's mighty ships in their little submarine. Even though they failed in their venture but they died in the far away backyard of the enemy heartland---nothing can glorify a death like dying in the enemy's backyard---so far away from your base---in anonymity to this day---we don't know the whole truth except that they laid down their lives on distant shores and are not with us anymore.

    Because I know---that our army---the one that faces the wrath of the nation every 10 to 12 years---it also sent its soldiers across of the borders---and even though the things did not go well for them----and many of them died---but so many of them died on the other side of the border in the enemy territory----in the enemy's front yard---and that is no small achievement for a small army.

    And then I hear about this doctrine----from our supposedly, the most cherished arm of our military wing---who claim to be the best of the best in the world---the military arm that struts around in arrogance and bravado---and preens around everywhere like Peacocks in heat----that they want to stay home and fight the battles on the home turf----basically what they are saying is that we will bring the enemy home---the enemy will destroy us and thus destroy the rest of the infra structure----.

    This is called the defensive air combat doctrine---where out of fear or incompetence or for whatever reasons you do not have the ability to strike at the enemy deep in its own woods---this doctrine is also know as the doctrine of cowardice.

    But how did it start---how did we get from an offensive air force to the one fighting with the tail between our legs.

    Well---like everything else---it started with incompetence at the top during the 1971 war----. The afghan war brought an opportune moment for the Pakistan air force---sanctions were off---and PAF had the option to buy different aircraft----. Being a French aircraft dominant air force---it should have by default stayed with the French---goinf rom Mirage 3/5 to Mirage F1 and then Mirage 2000.

    But during the war---it got the carrot dangled in front of it--the fabled F16----. On the other side was the Mirage 2000---on a given day each aircraft could outdo the other. The PAF BLUNDERED into buying the F16---and it left the gate open for its arch enemy to buy the supposedly number 2 aircraft.

    Indian air force was woefully equipped at that time---it only had Russian aircraft as its primary fighter aircraft.

    PAF thru its blunder---allowed the indian air force to purchase the Mirage 2000---and gave the enemy parity in the battlefield in the skies----.

    PAF lies that it needed the F16's to fight afghan air force----now we know that was not right---. The mirage 3 were well equipped to take on the afghan air force---as was the case in the first couple of afghan planes shot down by the mirages---.

    If the PAF had rejected the F 16----the indian air force would not have been able to buy the mirage 2000---because the Pakistan would have been the primary buyer.

    Then came the sanctions and another opportunity to buy mirage 2000----and the supposedly honest sec def of Pakistan rejected the deal because there was too much graft in that deal.

    So---what was the big deal about the graft---100 million---200 million---in the fortunes of nations---this amount is not even peanuts. This purchase would have given us back our parity over our arch enemy India.

    This blunder was a nail in the coffin of a prestigious air force which got destroyed by the actions of an HONEST OFFICER.

    Then came 9/11 and lifting of sanctions---PAF now has the funds to purchase an aircraft on a fastrak to fill up the gap that had widened over the years---but we forget to realize is that this was not the same fighting force of the mid 60----this was a force that had ROT set in its roots---the solid frame had been eaten by the termites---it was force in show only and the GUTS belonged to men long dead lying in their graves.

    The 4 years after 9/11 were lost in jumping from one plane to the other---acting totally clueless like a kid in the candy store with pocket full of money wants to buy every thing and ends up buying nothing.

    The primary target of the air force like any other force was to procure and aircraft that can match the front line enemy aircraft one on one and come out ahead. So that the enemy does not pose a threat to strike and create instability in the country----.
    Good to see you here,

    In my point of view Pakistan's decision to acquire F-16 was not worse as criticized but where i hit my words is to engage 2 technological platforms out of 3 existing military hardware research leaders Russia-US-France/EU. Only drawback with US technology is forced restrictions and pre-conditions attached with purchase slip. I might agree over chances slipped by Pakistan to strengthen its military force behind foreign policy initiatives of US/EU/GCC in the region but here we couldn't just blame over collective measures of Government of Pakistan but personal initiatives to take maximum advantages rather than deliver those advantages to the state.

    That's quite traditional now in Pakistan military to hide real issues behind praising the victims of institutional strategic incompetence.
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    PAF surely needs a Doctrine re-think but there is some sense in this all.
    Their Aircraft buying strategy is the something similar to what the swedes did after observing Soviet-Finland war. In 1940 when USSR invaded Finland it was no match and Finnish could not defend and receded. Later waged guerrilla warfare and won.
    Sweden was under threat from USSR and knew they wont be able to stop a massive onslaught and will have to allow the soviets to over run the country. Once they have reached some distance,then the swedes can come out of the shadows,cut off supply lines,and surround enemy forces. Thats why Swedes built a small plane the Grippen. So that it can be hidden away in forests with small resources and staff and yet it can fly and take on the enemy.
    A similar doctrine has prevailed among PAF after 1971.Before 1971 we could engage India from East and west,distributing their resources and stretching them out. Once BD was gone we couldnt be an offensive force,just defensive because of size and number advantage of India and swedish doctrine applied. Thats why PAF has no large twin engine jets, just small jets that can take off from small runways or public highways.
    We shall rather take pessimistic approach to historical doctrines but optimistic to take aggressive doctrine to maximum possible level when it comes to India & Afghanistan and there is historical explanations proving successive results of aggressive doctrine while dealing over eastern & western fronts.

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    India's cold start doctrine are in response to terror strikes from ISI and other state actors such as LeT

    http://www.pakistanaffairs.pk/thread...media%E2%80%99

    Cold start doctrine puts enough pressure on Pakistan to not repeat 26/11 attack.
    Not sure that it was India hypothetical CSD (Cold Start Doctrine) refrain Pakistan to run over India again.

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    Lahore attack will result into full fledged war. Sindh, Thar is the primal target for swift,decisive and fast gains. Cold start doctrine also helped Indian armed force justify their budget increases.
    There is low likelidhood for practical usage of such doctrine but Having such doctorine in place provide deterrence & diverts Pakistan resources and attention from kashmir to defense of it's main land territory.
    Will not oppose CSD but theoretical explanations than practical has been applied from both sides in favour of each side's military potential response.

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    As a status quo power, India doesn't want to engage in any war but Conventional superiority backed by offensive Cold start doctrine, Integrated Space cell and Missile ballistic defense force Pakistan to give up the revisionist position on Kashmir.
    Let's spare Kashmir since we are talking about strategy designed for WB. If we analyze rationally then that's obvious that both sides have well managed/equipped deterrence politics/tactics/technology with exceptional negatives & positive depends over military procurement futuristic approach.

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by DV RULES View Post
    We shall rather take pessimistic approach to historical doctrines but optimistic to take aggressive doctrine to maximum possible level when it comes to India & Afghanistan and there is historical explanations proving successive results of aggressive doctrine while dealing over eastern & western fronts.
    But Pakistan has dug quite deep into swedish doctrine. They have made Public highways with ability to land Fighter jets on them. So has done Pakistan. Many Highways and motorways with enough straight sections to land and takeoff jets. The sheer scale of Public highways makes it very difficult to completely destroy them enough to deny ability of fighter jets to use them.
    Likewise i am not sure if Jets like SU-30 can easily land and takeoff from Public highways.

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