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Thread: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

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    Senior Member Neo's Avatar
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION], PAF came very close to signing an attractive deal with France for 36 Mirage 2000 in early nineties. The purchase however was scrutinzed by Zardari who demanded a few millions comission per unit and to accomplish that he even harassed a few in the airforce. This was the main reason Benazir was made to resign.
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?


    Foreign Policy Diary – The India-Pakistan Confrontation

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Mirage 3 the Swiss version.. Visually it does not look as lame jet?

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post

    Foreign Policy Diary – The India-Pakistan Confrontation
    and the threat of a nuclear war will keep India at bay.. thats the whole point of having nuclear weapons,so Pakistan is already achieving the goals.
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION]
    What assets PAF will use for interceptor if F-7P and Mirage jets are retired? No other asset of PAF are capable of speeds of mach 2 and 2.2 as Mirage V and F-7.
    Isn't speed mainstay for any interceptor jet?
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Where you gone [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION]?

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Hi,

    For the last 30 plus years I have been hearing these words that the Pakistan's air force's doctrine is defensive in nature. And every time it raises the level of concern that I have for my motherland as if something does not sound right.

    Because I know very well---that my navy----the ones with the least amount of budget and no show pomp and strut---they sent their men 2500 miles away to strike at the heat of the enemy's mighty ships in their little submarine. Even though they failed in their venture but they died in the far away backyard of the enemy heartland---nothing can glorify a death like dying in the enemy's backyard---so far away from your base---in anonymity to this day---we don't know the whole truth except that they laid down their lives on distant shores and are not with us anymore.

    Because I know---that our army---the one that faces the wrath of the nation every 10 to 12 years---it also sent its soldiers across of the borders---and even though the things did not go well for them----and many of them died---but so many of them died on the other side of the border in the enemy territory----in the enemy's front yard---and that is no small achievement for a small army.

    And then I hear about this doctrine----from our supposedly, the most cherished arm of our military wing---who claim to be the best of the best in the world---the military arm that struts around in arrogance and bravado---and preens around everywhere like Peacocks in heat----that they want to stay home and fight the battles on the home turf----basically what they are saying is that we will bring the enemy home---the enemy will destroy us and thus destroy the rest of the infra structure----.

    This is called the defensive air combat doctrine---where out of fear or incompetence or for whatever reasons you do not have the ability to strike at the enemy deep in its own woods---this doctrine is also know as the doctrine of cowardice.

    But how did it start---how did we get from an offensive air force to the one fighting with the tail between our legs.

    Well---like everything else---it started with incompetence at the top during the 1971 war----. The afghan war brought an opportune moment for the Pakistan air force---sanctions were off---and PAF had the option to buy different aircraft----. Being a French aircraft dominant air force---it should have by default stayed with the French---goinf rom Mirage 3/5 to Mirage F1 and then Mirage 2000.

    But during the war---it got the carrot dangled in front of it--the fabled F16----. On the other side was the Mirage 2000---on a given day each aircraft could outdo the other. The PAF BLUNDERED into buying the F16---and it left the gate open for its arch enemy to buy the supposedly number 2 aircraft.

    Indian air force was woefully equipped at that time---it only had Russian aircraft as its primary fighter aircraft.

    PAF thru its blunder---allowed the indian air force to purchase the Mirage 2000---and gave the enemy parity in the battlefield in the skies----.

    PAF lies that it needed the F16's to fight afghan air force----now we know that was not right---. The mirage 3 were well equipped to take on the afghan air force---as was the case in the first couple of afghan planes shot down by the mirages---.

    If the PAF had rejected the F 16----the indian air force would not have been able to buy the mirage 2000---because the Pakistan would have been the primary buyer.

    Then came the sanctions and another opportunity to buy mirage 2000----and the supposedly honest sec def of Pakistan rejected the deal because there was too much graft in that deal.

    So---what was the big deal about the graft---100 million---200 million---in the fortunes of nations---this amount is not even peanuts. This purchase would have given us back our parity over our arch enemy India.

    This blunder was a nail in the coffin of a prestigious air force which got destroyed by the actions of an HONEST OFFICER.

    Then came 9/11 and lifting of sanctions---PAF now has the funds to purchase an aircraft on a fastrak to fill up the gap that had widened over the years---but we forget to realize is that this was not the same fighting force of the mid 60----this was a force that had ROT set in its roots---the solid frame had been eaten by the termites---it was force in show only and the GUTS belonged to men long dead lying in their graves.

    The 4 years after 9/11 were lost in jumping from one plane to the other---acting totally clueless like a kid in the candy store with pocket full of money wants to buy every thing and ends up buying nothing.

    The primary target of the air force like any other force was to procure and aircraft that can match the front line enemy aircraft one on one and come out ahead. So that the enemy does not pose a threat to strike and create instability in the country----.
    Hello - lovely to be reading you here -- Do we have an official articulation of the PAF doctrine? And about F-16's was there a domestic political element to this ?? Indeed, is there a domestic political element to procurement by Pakistan armed forces?
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION]
    What assets PAF will use for interceptor if F-7P and Mirage jets are retired? No other asset of PAF are capable of speeds of mach 2 and 2.2 as Mirage V and F-7.
    Isn't speed mainstay for any interceptor jet?
    Don't understand why retire them ?

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Latif View Post
    Don't understand why retire them ?
    Cuz it's like chuking spear at bullets -- these platforms can be rebuilt and more enhanced capability added to these platforms or employ them in conjunction with airborne radar and command platforms, on the other hand, Pakistanis do not as yet have such capabilities, consider the case of losing out to Israelis in Argentina, additionally, while it's hypothetical, it may be cost prohibitive -- whats curious to me is that the engine of the Mirage has not been changed to the engine on the JFT - capability?

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION], PAF came very close to signing an attractive deal with France for 36 Mirage 2000 in early nineties. The purchase however was scrutinzed by Zardari who demanded a few millions comission per unit and to accomplish that he even harassed a few in the airforce. This was the main reason Benazir was made to resign.
    Zardari sahib. Bless him.
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Regional environment demands ever-vigilant PAF role: air chief

    - Tuesday, December 01, 2015







    ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, said on Monday that presently in the face of security challenges, PAF’s preparedness and response have to be precise and expeditious keeping in view the regional environment which demanded an ever-vigilant role.

    Addressing the closing ceremony of the Inter-Squadron Armament Competition held at an Operational Air Base, where No-11 Multirole Squadron won the PAF Inter Squadron Armament Competition, he said.

    Our regional environment demands an ever vigilant role for PAF. Presently, in the face of security challenges, our preparedness and response has to be precise and expeditious.” He said it is through the rigorous training imparted by such competitions that we look forward to maintain the cutting edge of the PAF.

    While highlighting the role of PAF in the operation against terrorism the Air Chief said, PAF’s performance is receiving world-wide acclaim in the ongoing operation Zarb-e-Azb against the extremist elements.

    We are proud to claim that PAF leaves no stone unturned to meet the expectation of the nation and defend the aerial frontiers of Pakistan in the most befitting manner.”

    The Air Chief said, “This competition provides the unique opportunity to participants from various Weapon Systems, to exhibit their finest skills in the realm of delivering a wide variety of Air-to-Ground arsenals.

    It also serves well to attain the singular aim of developing a culture of professional expertise and maintaining exceptional precision in weapon deliveries.

    During the competition PAF fighter pilots from all weapon systems exhibited highest level of professionalism through sound planning, optimum employment and unmatched pin point weapon deliveries.

    After a close competition No-11 Multirole Squadron achieved highest score and was awarded the Armament Competition Trophy
    Squadron Leader Tariq Waheed Malik was awarded the coveted Sher Afgan Trophy for being the best marksman in the competition.

    The competition commenced on November 16, 2015. All PAF Fighter Squadrons were evaluated for operational readiness under competitive environment and assessed for weapon system performance in various tactical scenarios including weapon deliveries at tactical range.

    This year competition was special with the inclusion of JF-17 Thunder, F-16 Block-52 and F-16 in the exercise. The main highlight of the competition was exceptional performance by the Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force with the participating crew during closing ceremony of Inter Squadron Armament Competition at an Operational Air Base and it reaffirmed its position as the frontline fighter of the PAF.
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  12. #32
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION], PAF came very close to signing an attractive deal with France for 36 Mirage 2000 in early nineties. The purchase however was scrutinzed by Zardari who demanded a few millions comission per unit and to accomplish that he even harassed a few in the airforce. This was the main reason Benazir was made to resign.
    Hi,

    Thank you Neo---I have written many a times that major weapons purchase must never be stopped just because there is corruption----because it takes a long time for you to analyze and assess the equipment---arrange for payments---sign contract and get delivery.

    Just remember that there is always a problem waiting to happen at the next corner to cancel this deal---so---once things get into motion----nothing should stop a deal other than poor quality of weapon in question.

    Benazir already had gotten her cut off the sanctioned F16----out of the 450 mil dollars----her share was 150 mi----.

    Look at it this way---you have nothing----now you have the money to money 36 of them---a person in power wants a bribe equal to 6 aircrafts---so what do you get---30---so don't look at the money part---look at the UNIT part-----now assess what role can 30 aircraft play in your inventory---a pretty big role I would say.

    But---before the M2K's---pakistan could have opted for the Mirage F1 used and refurbished---a much superior aircraft to the mirage 3/5---.

    Now compare it to the Bofors 155mm howitzers scandal in india---who was it Rajiv Gandhi---blamed for bribes---so big deal he got the bribe----you could persecute him later for that---but he got the best weapons system for the army----those howitzers proved their worth during Kargil war.

    So---in our case we got caught in the dollar amount and not the amount of utility in question.
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  13. #33
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    [MENTION=8815]Mastankhan[/MENTION]
    What assets PAF will use for interceptor if F-7P and Mirage jets are retired? No other asset of PAF are capable of speeds of mach 2 and 2.2 as Mirage V and F-7.
    Isn't speed mainstay for any interceptor jet?
    Hi,

    Even though the F16's are mach 2 aircraft---you don't fly them at that speed because of flex / distortion in the bubble canopy. See---the top end speed on aircraft is an illusion except for the SR71 and its replacement.

    Most fighter aircraft dog fights are between 325--450 knots air speed. Air craft don't go to mach 2 speeds many a times---mach 1---1.2 is at the top end----550 to 600 knots is normal cruising speed.

    Plus nowadays with all the other supporting aircraft and asset support---you will have aircraft a lot sooner in the arena than before.

  14. #34
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Latif View Post
    Don't understand why retire them ?

    Hi,

    They are getting too old----engine and electronically they may be sound----but the structure---fasteners may have issues due to age and stress.

  15. #35
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    Mirage 3 the Swiss version.. Visually it does not look as lame jet?

    Hi,

    But then---for pakistan air force---mirage F1 was a better choice than the Mirage 3----.

    Because F1 is a better low alitude fighter and that is what paf excels in----




    Then it is also a better bomber----so basically----since the 80's PAF is running around in a confused state of mind.

  16. #36
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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    I have seen speculation on some threads that we may buy Russian jets any thoughts if this is a possibility?

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    Re: PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastankhan View Post
    Hi,

    Thank you Neo---I have written many a times that major weapons purchase must never be stopped just because there is corruption----because it takes a long time for you to analyze and assess the equipment---arrange for payments---sign contract and get delivery.

    Just remember that there is always a problem waiting to happen at the next corner to cancel this deal---so---once things get into motion----nothing should stop a deal other than poor quality of weapon in question.

    Benazir already had gotten her cut off the sanctioned F16----out of the 450 mil dollars----her share was 150 mi----.

    Look at it this way---you have nothing----now you have the money to money 36 of them---a person in power wants a bribe equal to 6 aircrafts---so what do you get---30---so don't look at the money part---look at the UNIT part-----now assess what role can 30 aircraft play in your inventory---a pretty big role I would say.

    But---before the M2K's---pakistan could have opted for the Mirage F1 used and refurbished---a much superior aircraft to the mirage 3/5---.

    Now compare it to the Bofors 155mm howitzers scandal in india---who was it Rajiv Gandhi---blamed for bribes---so big deal he got the bribe----you could persecute him later for that---but he got the best weapons system for the army----those howitzers proved their worth during Kargil war.

    So---in our case we got caught in the dollar amount and not the amount of utility in question.
    I guess 150 million was not enough. That stinks. Pakistan is better off with people like that in the ground
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