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Thread: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

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  1. #1
    Member Ravi01's Avatar
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    India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    New Delhi, Nov 2 (UNI) In what could easily be said the biggest ever defence deal with Russia, India has stitched a contract to acquire S-400 anti-ballistic missile systems from Moscow at a cost of around Rs 70,000 crores, top sources in the Defence Ministry said here today.

    The modalities, including the price of deal and number of systems to be acquired, were agreed upon in the meeting of India-Russia Inter Governmental Commission on Military-Technical-Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) which concluded today in Moscow, with Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar co-chairing it jointly with his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu.

    The mega deal, along with an agreement to get another nuclear submarine, is likely to be formally signed during the visit to Russia of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who would be travelling to Moscow sometime in December for an annual summit with President Vladimir Putin, the sources told UNI.

    http://www.uniindia.com/india-seals-...LG1YOyuJGo1.99

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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    How authentic is UNI India as a news source? because this news does not appear anywhere else.
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    Senior Member ArshadK's Avatar
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    How authentic is UNI India as a news source? because this news does not appear anywhere else.
    I read there were rumours that they were considering this but knowing ravi he has probably jumped the gun

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    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    How authentic is UNI India as a news source? because this news does not appear anywhere else.
    Not a reliable source but

    1. India plans to buy 10-12 S-400 battery which ll cost 5-6billion $ (Urgent given China have ordered 6 S-400)

    2. 200 Russian Ka-226T ‘Kamov’ helicopters will be made in India by Reliance Defence & Aerospace (RDA) at cost of 1 billion$ ( Private companies partnerships)

    3. Upgradation of engines and avionics of IL-76 and IL-78 aircraft from Russia for Rs 4,300 crore. (Urgent: 700 mill$)

    4. Acquisition of 2 New Kilo class submarine (600-700mil$) (Not a short term priority)
    5. 10 years lease of K-322 Kashalot , an Akula II class submarine ( 1billion$. Urgent for SSN development from 2018)

    Indian SSN wil be borrow a lot from Akula II class sub

    6. 149 BMP-2 IFVs for the army at a cost of Rs 924 crore(Urgent: 150 million$)

    7. 5,000 crore pact with Russian shipbuilder Zvezdochka for 4 Kilo class submarine refit ( Urgent: 800 mill$)


    Total : 11 bilion $. Its not a full payment deal.It will across 3-4 yrs and India will have to shelve out 3 bill$ yearly.


    Acquisition of S-400 is possible now while Rafale payment from IAF ll only start from 2018-19 once France begins delivering .

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    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia


    S-400 envelope over India

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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    I wull believe it when it happens
    Well all known what happened if MMRCA

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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    How authentic is UNI India as a news source? because this news does not appear anywhere else.
    Source is jumping the gun. Probably by 4 years. In 4 years the world will have moved on a bit further.
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    There was an ABM treaty in force which is now defunct but itit limited any ABM development to track or engage targets travelling at less than 4.8 meters per second or Mach 14. That is the limit upon which both USA and Russia wrote their algorithm to be used in their ABM. ALTHOUGH treaty Is expired but mABM manufacturers still mention Mach 14 as their upper most limit for detection of any target. S-400 has also the same stated upper limit of target detection.
    You can check it yourself from wherever you want.
    Other than that you may be aware that there are only two systems in the world which have been specifically developed for ballistic missile defense and can defend against all types of ballistic missiles. The Russian A-35 and American GMD.
    ALL other so called ABM are SAM with added capabilities of "trying " to hit an incoming ballistic missile.
    The nature of the systems limits them to reliably defending against tactical ballistic missiles only. Which are generally missiles which don't rise above 50-60 kilometers and hence don't have speeds above 6-7 Machs. It is stated in S-400 specifications by manufacturer. They only mentioned tactical ballistic missiles and even that limits system's tracking range to just 60 kilometre as even those type of missiles are too fast.
    S-400 or Patriot or any other SAM + ABM cannot defend against strategic ballistic missiles or missiles who rise to altitudes of above 100 kilometers and freefall to silly Mach numbers. These missiles are too fast to be tracked or hit by S-400, Patriot or any SAM+ABM.
    Shaheen series is safe. Nadr,Abdali and may Ghaznavi are vulnerable if India gets S-400.
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    Member Ravi01's Avatar
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    There was an ABM treaty in force which is now defunct but itit limited any ABM development to track or engage targets travelling at less than 4.8 meters per second or Mach 14. That is the limit upon which both USA and Russia wrote their algorithm to be used in their ABM. ALTHOUGH treaty Is expired but mABM manufacturers still mention Mach 14 as their upper most limit for detection of any target. S-400 has also the same stated upper limit of target detection.
    You can check it yourself from wherever you want.
    Other than that you may be aware that there are only two systems in the world which have been specifically developed for ballistic missile defense and can defend against all types of ballistic missiles. The Russian A-35 and American GMD.
    ALL other so called ABM are SAM with added capabilities of "trying " to hit an incoming ballistic missile.
    The nature of the systems limits them to reliably defending against tactical ballistic missiles only. Which are generally missiles which don't rise above 50-60 kilometers and hence don't have speeds above 6-7 Machs. It is stated in S-400 specifications by manufacturer. They only mentioned tactical ballistic missiles and even that limits system's tracking range to just 60 kilometre as even those type of missiles are too fast.
    S-400 or Patriot or any other SAM + ABM cannot defend against strategic ballistic missiles or missiles who rise to altitudes of above 100 kilometers and freefall to silly Mach numbers. These missiles are too fast to be tracked or hit by S-400, Patriot or any SAM+ABM.
    Shaheen series is safe. Nadr,Abdali and may Ghaznavi are vulnerable if India gets S-400.

    this is nonesense

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    Senior Member ArshadK's Avatar
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravi01 View Post
    this is nonesense
    You could try using spell checker

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    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    [MENTION=43]safriz[/MENTION]


    You need to do some more research.A ballistic missile which have little maneuverability can be intercepted with interceptor of 5-6 Mach. IF the RV is coming towards the ABM then why do you need to chase it?

    Generally ABM missiles have similar speed bcoz they cover an envelope of larger radius.

    A missile with range of 400 KM will need hyper-sonic speed if it intends to bring down IRBM/MRBM at altitude >80 KM! Problem is with range(radius) not speed.
    Otherwise, you can use many ABM batteries at shorter radius & use 5-6Mach missile to achieve similar result.


    S-300 is a tactical missile defence while S-400 comes in league of (TMD)Theater missile defense. They can handle IRBM missiles (with range up to 4000-5000 KM)


    S-400 uses 40N6, a hyper sonic missile which can intercept ballistic missiles at height of 185 KM with speed of 14 Mach.
    They also have

    India's nascent PDV kill vehicle intercept at height above 150 KM. Well, India is working on Ka-Band AESA seeker & hypersonic vehicles. India's AAD,PAD uses Ku band seeker active homing radar while PDV used IIR seeker at high altitude.
    S400 is an optimal SAM, BMD for MRBM,IRBM & all kinds of fighter jet,cruise missiles which have RCS of >=0.4 square meters


    Pakistan Shaheen series are 40 yr old tech. There is no evidence to suggest that they uses GPS.

    None of Shaheen missiles have MARV capability. At best it can do some course correction before RV is separated.
    Last edited by Mohan Tiwari; 4th November 2015 at 20:14.

  12. #12
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    [MENTION=43]safriz[/MENTION]

    you need to do some more research.S-300 is a tactical missile defence while S-400 comes in league of (TMD)Theater missile defense. They can handle missiles with range up to 4000 KM


    S-400 have 40N6 which can intercept ballistic missiles at height of 185 KM with speed of 14 Mach.



    S400 is an optimal SAM, BMD for MRBM,IRBM & all kinds of fighter jet,cruise missiles which have RCS of >=0.4 square meters


    Pakistan Shaheen series are 40 yr old tech. There is no evidence to suggest that they uses GPS.

    None of Shaheen missiles have MARV capability. At best it can do some course correction before RV is separated.
    Three terminologis, Detection, tracking and neutralization.
    Being able to detect s missile does not mean the system can also track it,because tracking means near real time update of target position which in case of Strategic ballistic missiles is not possible for S-400 because they are too fast.
    Even manufacturer only mentions tactical ballistic missiles in brochure. They don't even mention strategic ballistic missiles.
    So S-400 may be able to detect a strategic ballistic missile, but can't track or neutralize it.
    It does have high probability of hitting targets coming in at up to Mach 6-7 or Tactical ballistic missiles speed range.
    But that too comes under doubt if incoming target has any ability of changing course abruptly to Dodge ABM.
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    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    Three terminologis, Detection, tracking and neutralization.
    Being able to detect s missile does not mean the system can also track it,because tracking means near real time update of target position which in case of Strategic ballistic missiles is not possible for S-400 because they are too fast.
    Even manufacturer only mentions tactical ballistic missiles in brochure. They don't even mention strategic ballistic missiles.
    So S-400 may be able to detect a strategic ballistic missile, but can't track or neutralize it.
    It does have high probability of hitting targets coming in at up to Mach 6-7 or Tactical ballistic missiles speed range.
    But that too comes under doubt if incoming target has any ability of changing course abruptly to Dodge ABM.
    1. Strategic missile defense is for missile defense against ICBM.
    Russian currelty uses 54T6 ABM which can travel at speed of 17 Mach & intercept RV at height of 80 Km. They have also build 55K6MA as part of S-500 BMD program


    2. S-400 is a full fledged Theater missile defense & it is sufficient to handle IRBM/MRBM.

    48H6E3(48N6DM) – The 250 km, target speed 4,800 metres per second (17,000 km/h; 11,000 mph; Mach 14)

    40N6 missile is capable of exo-atmospheric interception of IRBM (intermediate-range ballistic missile) warheads in their terminal phase.
    Presently, the S-400 makes use of four different types of supersonic endo-atmospheric interceptor missiles (top speed of 4.8km/second:14 Mach): the 40N6E, the 9M96E2, the 48N6E3 and the 48N6E2, all of which are armed with HE-fragmentation warheads. What Russia has proposed for the IAF are two HYPERSONIC missiles, the exo-atmospheric 77N6-N and the endo-atmospheric 77N6-NI, having top speeds of 7km/second and also being the first SAMs of Russian origin to possess INERT warheads, i.e. warheads that do not contain any explosives and instead, are ‘hittile’, meaning they will destroy inbound TBMs, IRBMs or MRBMs by sheer force of impact.
    As per the IAF’s projections, there exists a requirement for 12 Batteries of the S-400 (each Battery using four TELs each housing four cannister-encased LR-SAMs), plus 12 C-6 LRTRs and two C-22 LRTRs. In other words, as per the IAF’s appreciation, a total of 11 strategic sectors are required to be protected against inbound TBMs, IRBMs and MRBMs.


    Russians are offering S-450(mix of S-400 and S-500) to India!

    Source: http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2...anagement.html

  14. #14
    Facebook Editor safriz's Avatar
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Top speed of 7 km/s? No SAM in the world can have that speed. Something wrong with your comment above.

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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Whoever you quoted has gone nuts, claiming Mach 20 as speed of Surface to air missile

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    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    Top speed of 7 km/s? No SAM in the world can have that speed. Something wrong with your comment above.
    *77N6-N can engage ICBM flying at 7Km/s. It's part of S-500 PROMETHEUS.
    Their speed should be in range 14-16 Mac.It is to be used by the S-500, which has a clearly stated anti-ICBM role.

    Russians are offering mix of S-400 and S-500 to India

    http://missilethreat.com/defense-systems/s-500/

    Two new missiles have been designed for the S-500 (and the S-400): the 77N6-N and the 77N6-N1. They were reported to be capable of direct engagement with targets flying at hypersonic speeds (seven kilometers per second)

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    Senior Member Greenstar's Avatar
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    Top speed of 7 km/s? No SAM in the world can have that speed. Something wrong with your comment above.
    Indians can. They are incredible.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Mohan Tiwari's Avatar
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    Whoever you quoted has gone nuts, claiming Mach 20 as speed of Surface to air missile
    I'ts very much possible.
    MRBM/IRBM 's RV can be morphed into SAM to achieve 20 Mach. RV can use a traditional SAM solid rocket engine.

    It's like hitting a ballistic missile from top.


    [MENTION=7151]Greenstar[/MENTION]

    WE are discussing S-400 & S-500

  19. #19
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    I'ts very much possible.
    MRBM/IRBM 's RV can be morphed into SAM to achieve 20 Mach. RV can use a traditional SAM solid rocket engine.

    It's like hitting a ballistic missile from top.


    [MENTION=7151]Greenstar[/MENTION]

    WE are discussing S-400 & S-500
    I insist you recheck the source you quoted. They are making ludicrous claims. Laws if physics don't allow that types if speed Mach 20 for a SAM.
    JUST tell them they made an error and see what they say.
    The Darpa Vehicle you mentioned does not go beyond Mach 6 and that too on all the way powered flight. SAM has a burnout time of some seconds.

  20. #20
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    Re: India seals Rs 70,000 cr missile deal with Russia

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohan Tiwari View Post
    I'ts very much possible.
    MRBM/IRBM 's RV can be morphed into SAM to achieve 20 Mach. RV can use a traditional SAM solid rocket engine.

    It's like hitting a ballistic missile from top.


    [MENTION=7151]Greenstar[/MENTION]

    WE are discussing S-400 & S-500
    I insist you recheck the source you quoted. They are making ludicrous claims. Laws if physics don't allow that types if speed Mach 20 for a SAM.
    JUST tell them they made an error and see what they say.
    The Darpa Vehicle you mentioned does not go beyond Mach 6 and that too on all the way powered flight. SAM has a burnout time of some seconds.

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