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Thread: ‘I, As A Hindu, As A Believer, Am Horrified By This Ideology’

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  1. #21
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by PoKeMon View Post
    Firstly - You are quoting me out of context. First tell me where I have said majority makes one right?

    Secondly - majority views can not be sidelined and should be adjusted if they are not threatening the basics of nation along with helping in keeping the society intact.

    Thirdly - Rather than beating around the bush, why not you comment on symbolic importance and sentiments of hindus for cows and muslims for pigs. India will ban pork and I will support the ban if muslims feel killing pig is like killing their revered figure. If there are no such sentiments, why shall India ban? Just because someone for sake of argument is argumenting on pak affairs?



    Secularism means - maintain religious harmony and avoid hurting religious sentiments.

    So what hurt religious sentiments -

    1- Allowing beef which is revered by hindus as a part of religion.
    Or
    2- Disallowing beef to hindus/non-hindus, which again doesn't hurt their religion.

    Its not bye bye but embracing and enacting secularism.



    As I said hindus wont bother banning pork, just let the muslims comes out and say they love pig and feel sad that hindus are eating it.

    Sad for you, muslims dont feel an urge to save pigs.
    On the first point, you are being disingenuous, I won't quote you, but I'm pretty sure someone will - you have made the argument that it hurts the majority and as a sign of respect ..... but I won't follow that, I always regret that a position I took led someone to lose credibility - the fun of discussion and argument gets lost.

    So lets move on to the main bit, the heart, the citadel of your argument and lay siege to it and vanquish it, in a nice way, with all respect and such:
    Symbolic importance and sentiment on one hand and Secular on the other, and Secularism, the political manifestation of the secular

    before we begin, instead of me defining "secular" -- I will work a definition you are at ease with, as long as it actually define "secular" , fair enuff??

  2. #22
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    On the first point, you are being disingenuous, I won't quote you, but I'm pretty sure someone will - you have made the argument that it hurts the majority and as a sign of respect ..... but I won't follow that, I always regret that a position I took led someone to lose credibility - the fun of discussion and argument gets lost.

    So lets move on to the main bit, the heart, the citadel of your argument and lay siege to it and vanquish it, in a nice way, with all respect and such:
    Symbolic importance and sentiment on one hand and Secular on the other, and Secularism, the political manifestation of the secular

    before we begin, instead of me defining "secular" -- I will work a definition you are at ease with, as long as it actually define "secular" , fair enuff??
    I will take it as an absence of answers from you. Why not for a change you provide your POV and not waste your time in over dissection of my post?

    Why not for a change be simple and clear in your views rather than decorating them with too much of philosophy or I must say masquerading to be something else.

  3. #23
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by PoKeMon View Post
    I will take it as an absence of answers from you. Why not for a change you provide your POV and not waste your time in over dissection of my post?

    Why not for a change be simple and clear in your views rather than decorating them with too much of philosophy or I must say masquerading to be something else.
    Thanks for that - I will be sure to remember how you like it - OK, secular mean without reference to religion, secularism is a political ideology that seeks allow religion space in conscience not governance.

    Once the Indian state becomes involved on the side of any confessional group, it's "secular" credentials are open to challenge. Hindus can only by force, protect their "sentiments" and the "symbolic importance" of what is otherwise food to non-Muslims - doing so exposes the State as a fraud, posing to be secular, further it exposes the polity as majoritarian, where in the majority, whether ethnic or confessional seeks to impose it's value system, it's sentiments, it's symbolic preference over others. Therefore, since the Indian state with regard to banning beef, acts in preference of one confessional groups tradition over another, it is neither secular and is entirely majoritarian in it's behavior. And for my money, more power to it.
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    [MENTION=126]PoKeMon[/MENTION]

    Banning beef on religious grounds is obviously NOT secular..... You want to maintain religious harmony by "imposing" religious beliefs/practices of Hindu majority on the Non Hindu minority ?? Go ahead, do it ... But if You guys ban cow slaughter/beef consumption just because it is banned in Hinduism, and you believe that it hurts the religious sentiments of the Hindu majority, then you should know that you are being anything but secular ...
    " There is no God but Allah , Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah " ................... لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله


    "(O Muhammad) And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." [Al Quran 2:219]

    "And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment"[9:34]

    "..Allah has provided land & Resources for all needful.” [41:10]

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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    Thanks for that - I will be sure to remember how you like it - OK, secular mean without reference to religion, secularism is a political ideology that seeks allow religion space in conscience not governance.

    Once the Indian state becomes involved on the side of any confessional group, it's "secular" credentials are open to challenge. Hindus can only by force, protect their "sentiments" and the "symbolic importance" of what is otherwise food to non-Muslims - doing so exposes the State as a fraud, posing to be secular, further it exposes the polity as majoritarian, where in the majority, whether ethnic or confessional seeks to impose it's value system, it's sentiments, it's symbolic preference over others. Therefore, since the Indian state with regard to banning beef, acts in preference of one confessional groups tradition over another, it is neither secular and is entirely majoritarian in it's behavior. And for my money, more power to it.
    Basic fallacy in your argument is the conflict you see- there is no conflict of two religious groups.

    The conflict is between religious one and behavioral one (eating habit). You are trying too hard to make it a conflict between two religious sentiments which it is not and thus it fails your quest to somehow put secularism in question.

    For hindus - its religious one which hurt them in core.

    For non-hindus (since beef is not just muslim thing), its curbing of their eating habit which doesn't sums up to a tab on their religious practice.

    For a nation like India, which has so much of diversity, to maintain harmony, decisions are taken so that they are least divisive and damaging. Curbing a eating habit looks more comfortable than asking people to stop revering cows which is quite a non violent sentiment.

    Muse, you seems to be discounting the very principle of a family i.e. tolerance and sacrifice. Will you let your cousin eat a creature your little daughter loves too much? Or you will ask your cousin to enjoy another one and leave that creature alone just to maintain family intact?

    Your whole argument justifies two nation theory and suggestive of the notion that muslims shouldn't sacrifice anything to co-exists/ That's not a good trait.
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    [MENTION=126]PoKeMon[/MENTION]

    Banning beef on religious grounds is obviously NOT secular..... You want to maintain religious harmony by "imposing" religious beliefs/practices of Hindu majority on the Non Hindu minority ?? Go ahead, do it ... But if You guys ban cow slaughter/beef consumption just because it is banned in Hinduism, and you believe that it hurts the religious sentiments of the Hindu majority, then you should know that you are being anything but secular ...
    I think he's too angry now - instead of learning from our experience they are determined to repeat it.
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    [MENTION=126]PoKeMon[/MENTION]

    Banning beef on religious grounds is obviously NOT secular..... You want to maintain religious harmony by "imposing" religious beliefs/practices of Hindu majority on the Non Hindu minority ?? Go ahead, do it ... But if You guys ban cow slaughter/beef consumption just because it is banned in Hinduism, and you believe that it hurts the religious sentiments of the Hindu majority, then you should know that you are being anything but secular ...
    Secularism is not atheism. Secularism doesn't mean denying religion but it means accommodating religions with respects.

    In a religious community you can not have complete disassociation of state and religion. In India, we accommodate everyone to a limit. If we ban beef than we do give hajj subsidy.

    Why not question state for funding religious trips? Violation of secularism? No?
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    I think he's too angry now - instead of learning from our experience they are determined to repeat it.
    No Sir, I am just following principles of a family which is based on give and take. And I wont be angry for you not understanding me, If people would have, partition would not have happened.
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    [MENTION=1244]Muse[/MENTION] you know what your(nation) mistakes were/are? That you never understood the value of accommodating people sentiments while maintaining the envisioned fabric of your nation. You were too rigid between black and white.

    It wont take an year for India to break if we follow your ideology. We never did, we never will. We follow compensatory one, if hindus will get something, others will be compensated in some other forms.
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by PoKeMon View Post
    Secularism is not atheism. Secularism doesn't mean denying religion but it means accommodating religions with respects.

    In a religious community you can not have complete disassociation of state and religion. In India, we accommodate everyone to a limit. If we ban beef than we do give hajj subsidy.

    Why not question state for funding religious trips? Violation of secularism? No?
    Absolutely!!

    See, what you call "accommodating" is not and cannot be what secularism is about -- You are right that we are not suggesting atheism is the character of secularism, what we are pointing out is that giving space to religion, any religion, to it's symbolism, to its ideology is not accommodation, it is preference -- but sure by all means do it, do more of it. Like I said to Mowan, may your tribe increase and may you thrive
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    Absolutely!!

    See, what you call "accommodating" is not and cannot be what secularism is about -- You are right that we are not suggesting atheism is the character of secularism, what we are pointing out is that giving space to religion, any religion, to it's symbolism, to its ideology is not accommodation, it is preference -- but sure by all means do it, do more of it. Like I said to Mowan, may your tribe increase and may you thrive
    Yes, we will do it, we have to do it. Till when?

    When we will have lessor and lessor people to worry about for their religious sentiments.
    When people will no longer bother.
    When state wont be in a danger if someone slaughter a cow/pig or whatever.

    Now as creepy as it may sound, I am happy that lessor people are getting killed for cow slaughtering in India though its rampant in states which even have ban there. Soon no one will bother, and state will have no compulsions to either prefer or accommodate any sentiment.

    Though my tribe, once thrived, will ask for complete meat ban.

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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    [MENTION=126]PoKeMon[/MENTION] .. It is unfair to blame (only) the Indian Muslims for the partition of India ... Had the Hindu-dominated Congress understood the value of accommodating Muslims' sentiments, the Muslim League wouldn't have risen to become the sole representative of Muslims throughout India (from a UP based political party with less than 2000 members) in a matter of few years only ...
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    " There is no God but Allah , Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah " ................... لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله


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    "And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment"[9:34]

    "..Allah has provided land & Resources for all needful.” [41:10]

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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    [MENTION=126]PoKeMon[/MENTION] .. It is unfair to blame (only) the Indian Muslims for the partition ... Had the Hindu Congress understood the value of accommodating Muslims' sentiments, the Muslim League wouldn't have risen to become the sole representative of Muslims throughout India (from a UP based political party with less than 2000 members) in a matter of few years only ...
    I never blame anyone but insecurities and greed.

    I dont even consider the partition as hindu muslim thing. Leave that for politicians. I have been raised among 10 muslim and 1 hindu friend.
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    The state was in no danger when Congress ran things, cows were being slaughtered and eaten as they have been for thousands of years - some how when BJP showed up in town the state was in danger, from consuming beef??

    We know all about Islam Khatrey mai hai, followed by Mulk...followed by Ghairat, followed by for the love and respect..(read Sentiments).

    Lol, fighting over food as Sentiment and Symbol - I thought India was happening but really, over this??
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    The state was in no danger when Congress ran things, cows were being slaughtered and eaten as they have been for thousands of years - some how when BJP showed up in town the state was in danger, from consuming beef??

    We know all about Islam Khatrey mai hai, followed by Mulk...followed by Ghairat, followed by for the love and respect..(read Sentiments).

    Lol, fighting over food as Sentiment and Symbol - I thought India was happening but really, over this??
    Now you are talking against facts. It was congress who imposed beef ban.

    Beef is banned in UP for ages.
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    [MENTION=1244]Muse[/MENTION] .. Extremist Hindus never had a chance to rule India (despite India being predominantly Hindu) in the last one thousand years .... Now, unfortunately, it's their turn
    " There is no God but Allah , Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah " ................... لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله


    "(O Muhammad) And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." [Al Quran 2:219]

    "And those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah - give them tidings of a painful punishment"[9:34]

    "..Allah has provided land & Resources for all needful.” [41:10]

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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    [MENTION=1244]Muse[/MENTION] I can sense your difficulties in seeing the gravity in this issue. Its just food.

    Being a vegetarian in Pakistan
    http://images.dawn.com/news/1173981
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    [MENTION=1244]Muse[/MENTION] .. Extremist Hindus never had a chance to rule India (despite India being predominantly Hindu) in the last one thousand years .... Now, unfortunately, it's their turn
    That shows how less extremism is among hindus. We, by race, culture and tradition are quite non violent and accommodating.
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmad View Post
    .. Extremist Hindus never had a chance to rule India (despite India being predominantly Hindu) in the last one thousand years .... Now, unfortunately, it's their turn

    I take your point, but I do wonder if extremist anything, deserve to rule anything -really do - -- The whole notion of "Hindu" as A religion is so new and so entirely Western, and yet that seems not to get through.
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    Re: Pakistan questions India's 'secular credentials' - The Siasat Daily

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    I take your point, but I do wonder if extremist anything, deserve to rule anything -ally do - -- The whole notion of "Hindu" as A religion is so new and so entirely Western, and yet that seems not to get through.
    True, because in a billion plus population, few thugs kill a muslim even though the thugs are booked, family getting compensation and support from all sides, Indian air force coming in support and what not.

    Come on - we are 1/6 of humanity, dont expect so much ideal behavior from half educated society.

    I will leave you duo to engage in what interest you.
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