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Thread: US drone strikes in Pakistan

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  1. #41
    Member Pickwickian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by einsjam View Post
    only baitullah mehsud? really?
    And one other who is confirmed killed and was part of a group that is affiliated Al-Qaeda, from what I know.

    Drone attacks so far have killed commanders like Al Libi,
    He was captured and tortured to death.


    atya abdur rehman,
    Fair enough.

    Edit: Al-zawahri comfirmed he was killed, drones were not mentioned.

    ilyas kashmiri,
    Kashmiri resistance fighter


    badar mansoor etc..
    Likewise, another millitant that is brushed with the Al-Qaeda logo IMO


    .they have been highly effective and even the pakistani army thinks so otherwise the drone attacks would have met with the same response that the Salala attack generated.
    Source?



    The question is not about the effectiveness of drone strikes, because even without drones, the intelligence technology employed these days is way beyond the iq levels of average citizenry. Drone attacks are the end process of a sophisticated intelligence operation. without satellite and field intelligence a drone strike cannot practically happen.
    The question is not of the effectiveness? Of course it is, if the chances of innocent people dying is so high, then you shouldn't do it.

    Lastly, Pakistan's problem is not with the drones but the breach of its sovereignty. Something that is nothing but rhetoric garbage and is used by army and govt to keep a different public figure. Behind doors, the reality of the situation is strikingly different.
    I know the Goverment don't mind it behind doors, but can you give a source for the Army?
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    Last edited by Pickwickian; 14th August 2012 at 17:26.

  2. #42
    Administrator Aryan_B's Avatar
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    guys can we talk about the sovereignty issue please and its legality? what your opinions I am keen to see if you share my earlier thoughts on this thread
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarvin View Post
    And one other who is confirmed killed and was part of a group that is affiliated Al-Qaeda, from what I know.


    He was captured and tortured to death.




    Fair enough.

    Edit: Al-zawahri comfirmed he was killed, drones were not mentioned.


    Kashmiri resistance fighter



    Likewise, another millitant that is brushed with the Al-Qaeda logo IMO




    Source?





    The question is not of the effectiveness? Of course it is, if the chances of innocent people dying is so high, then you shouldn't do it.


    I know the Goverment don't mind it behind doors, but can you give a source for the Army?
    sources

    here you are bro, BBC News - Al-Qaeda commander Abu Yahya al-Libi killed - US officials
    Pakistan Army Chief wanted Drone Support: Wikileaks - Videos Allvoices
    Army chief wanted more drone support | DAWN.COM
    My Drone War - By Pir Zubair Shah | Foreign Policy

    regards
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  4. #44
    Administrator Aryan_B's Avatar
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    This is the point if our govt says they didn't know it's a tacit admission that we can not defend our sovereignty.
    I personally think that if Pakistan govt said no they could stop them. America can not afford open hostility with Pakistan.

  5. #45
    Member einsjam's Avatar
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    well we cant defend. sad and blunt truth. not for now though, until and unless we stop depending on other nations and do some stuff ourselves. period

  6. #46
    Member Pickwickian's Avatar
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    This is from 2008 when the US and Pakistan were working together to target terrorists in the region, it is well known that Pakistan would work together with the US to locate and kill targets and there was nothing wrong with that since the PA was confirming the targets. However it was afterwards that the US went on a drone rampage and started killing spontaneously anyone it suspected of being a militant without the permission of the Pakistan Army.

  7. #47
    Member einsjam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarvin View Post
    This is from 2008 when the US and Pakistan were working together to target terrorists in the region, it is well known that Pakistan would work together with the US to locate and kill targets and there was nothing wrong with that since the PA was confirming the targets. However it was afterwards that the US went on a drone rampage and started killing spontaneously anyone it suspected of being a militant without the permission of the Pakistan Army.
    i think i have mentioned articles that are actually from 2012. But anyways, the fact of the matter is that even if the drone attacks are unethical, you cant just shoot them down because our army doesnt have the capability to counter drone attacks. And by the way, the army is opening another front in waziristan with the help of the americans. Yes! the american boots would be on the ground now as well US boots on the ground? | The Nation
    Pak Army plans to open new front against militants
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by einsjam View Post
    i think i have mentioned articles that are actually from 2012. But anyways, the fact of the matter is that even if the drone attacks are unethical, you cant just shoot them down because our army doesnt have the capability to counter drone attacks. And by the way, the army is opening another front in waziristan with the help of the americans. Yes! the american boots would be on the ground now as well US boots on the ground? | The Nation
    Pak Army plans to open new front against militants
    You may have but the Pak-US co-operation bit they are talking about happened in 2008-2009, from what I remember. I have no problem with Pakistan and the US working together, that's good news! Hope they get the terrorists.
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  9. #49
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    ha..the terrorists? who defines what a terrorist is ...tht is such a vague term...i thought Taliban were the terrorists but the yanks have allowed them to open an embassy in Qatar...the haqqanis profit from war, war keeps obama in power ( its the election year) and war keeps funds rolling in our army.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by einsjam View Post
    ha..the terrorists? who defines what a terrorist is ...tht is such a vague term...i thought Taliban were the terrorists but the yanks have allowed them to open an embassy in Qatar...the haqqanis profit from war, war keeps obama in power ( its the election year) and war keeps funds rolling in our army.
    You're correct, that's why I questioned some of the Al-Qaeda members you put up. The question us Pakistanis have to ask ourselves is do we consider Kashmiri and Afghan resistance fighters as terrorists. In my eyes, it is those who are doing harm to Pakistan and the rest are free to fight any foreign occupation they want as long as they are not trying to bring their distorted version of Sharia into Pakistan.

  11. #51
    Senior Member Express's Avatar
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    Drone attack kills four in North Waziristan


    PESHAWAR: At least four people were killed in a suspected US drone attack in the North Waziristan tribal region on Saturday, DawnNews reported.

    Two people were also injured in the attack that took place in the tribal region’s Shawal area.

    Two missiles were fired during the attack which targeted a house and a vehicle in the area.

    US considers North Waziristan a stronghold of the Haqqani network – Afghan insurgents blamed for a series of spectacular attacks on Western targets in Kabul – and Pakistani Taliban chief Hakimullah Mehsud.

    Pakistan says the missile attacks are counter-productive, violate its sovereignty, kill civilians and fuel anti-US sentiment.

    Despite Pakistani criticism US officials are believed to consider the drone attacks too useful to stop them altogether. They have argued that drone strikes are a valuable weapon in the war against Al Qaeda and other militants.

    Drone attack kills four in North Waziristan | DAWN.COM

  12. #52
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    US under pressure over drone raids



    The United Nations has called on the US to release the footage of its deadly assassination drone strikes in different parts of the globe or face an international inquiry.


    UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights and Counter-Terrorism Ben Emmerson said on Sunday that the US is coming under mounting global pressure over its use of assassination drones, adding that he is preparing a report on the issue for the next session of the Human Rights Council in March.

    Emmerson also urged Washington to open itself to an independent probe into the legality of such attacks that will "remain at the top of the UN political agenda until some consensus and transparency has been achieved."

    "We can't make a decision on whether it is lawful or unlawful if we do not have the data. The recommendation I have made is that users of targeted killing technology should be required to subject themselves, in the case of each and every death, to impartial investigation. If they do not establish a mechanism to do so, it will be my recommendation that the UN should put the mechanisms in place through the Human Rights Council, the General Assembly and the Office of the High Commissioner," he said.

    Emmerson also lashed out at the US President Barack Obama Administration for "the position that it will neither confirm nor deny the existence of the drone program, whilst allowing senior officials to give public justifications of its supposed legality in personal lectures and interviews."


    Emmerson said a large number of lawsuits have been filed against the US government in different parts of the world over such attacks with the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) and the American Civil Liberties Union being among the institutions that have launched legal actions.

    "There are now a large number of lawsuits, in different parts of the world, including in the UK, Pakistan and in the US itself, through which pressure for investigation and accountability is building," Emmerson said.

    CCR says an estimated 2,500 people have been killed in drone strikes since Obama came to power in January 2009.

    The US uses drones for combat and espionage missions in several countries including Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    The US claims the pilotless aircraft target militants but many of the victims turn out to be civilians.

    The aerial attacks were initiated by former US President George W. Bush, but have escalated under Obama.

    Pakistan in particular has objected to the US assassination drone attacks on its territory, arguing that the strikes violate its sovereignty.

    PressTV - US under pressure over drone raids

  13. #53
    Senior Member ManojKumar's Avatar
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    There is a fundamental problem and fault i cant fathom here. Perhaps i am missing something here. The Pakistan government MUST be giving their backing to the USA BEHIND closed doors or they wouldnt be carrying out these attacks. There is no way these attacks would be taking place. Pakistan people wake up. Dont blame the USA if you are not happy with this. Blame your own leaders for being dishonest.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManojKumar View Post
    There is a fundamental problem and fault i cant fathom here. Perhaps i am missing something here. The Pakistan government MUST be giving their backing to the USA BEHIND closed doors or they wouldnt be carrying out these attacks. There is no way these attacks would be taking place. Pakistan people wake up. Dont blame the USA if you are not happy with this. Blame your own leaders for being dishonest.

    Manoj you are a man after my own heart full of common sense. I agree with your comments. We have traitors amongst our midst

  15. #55
    Senior Member KingKong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManojKumar View Post
    There is a fundamental problem and fault i cant fathom here. Perhaps i am missing something here. The Pakistan government MUST be giving their backing to the USA BEHIND closed doors or they wouldnt be carrying out these attacks. There is no way these attacks would be taking place. Pakistan people wake up. Dont blame the USA if you are not happy with this. Blame your own leaders for being dishonest.
    One can only agree. Hopefully there will be changes at the top soon and then there will be a back bone to our leadership

  16. #56
    Administrator Aryan_B's Avatar
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    Obama administration had tacit consent of Pakistan military, claims book

    Obama administration had tacit consent of Pakistan military, claims book


    Anwar Iqbal |


    A covert CIA team tried various ruses to learn the identity of the compound residents, including free door-to-door polio immunisation. File Photo by AFP

    WASHINGTON: The Obama administration seems to have acquired a “tacit consent” of the Pakistani military for the May 2 raid in Abbottabad that killed al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, claims a new book released in the United States on Wednesday.

    The book – “Leading from Behind: The Reluctant President and the Advisors Who Decide for Him” – also claimed that in August 2010, the ISI offered valuable information about bin Laden’s hideout to the CIA.

    On page 116, author Richard Miniter disputes US President Barack Obama’s claim that he took a great political risk by ordering a strike into a compound near the Pakistan Military Academy, Kakul.

    “Far from taking a risk, there are indications that a cover story had been developed with the Pakistani military and that Mr Obama had their tacit consent for the mission,” he writes.

    The author, a former reporter with The Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal, argues that “the Obama administration’s account of Pakistan’s role (in the operation) is misleading and incomplete.”

    The author also claims that Pakistan Army chief may have been briefed in December 2010 about the operation, five months before the night-time raid on bin Laden’s concrete castle. “Pakistan was more involved in the bin Laden operation than Obama’s team admitted,” he argues.

    Giving a “never-before-reported account” of the Abbottabad raid, the author writes: “When the CIA revealed that an ISI colonel had contacted the CIA in Islamabad and offered information about bin Laden, a debate followed.

    “Was this a secret sign that the head of the ISI was pointing out bin Laden’s hiding place or was the colonel actually the patriot who hated extremism that he claimed to be?”

    Although Mr Miniter does not explain what information did the ISI provide, he notes that “the CIA found bin Laden’s hiding place within a month of the colonel’s visit” to its Islamabad office.

    An official with “second hand knowledge of the White House discussion” on the operation tells the author that “there was talking about devising a cover story that would allow Pakistan to be helpful while keeping its leaders form political harm.”

    The story was that bin Laden was killed in a drone strike and that the US later sent in a SEAL team to recover the body.

    “That was believed to be less politically harmful than a commando team treading on Pakistan’s oil,” told the author.

    According to this official, when the Pakistan Army chief was alerted in December 2010, “no concrete facts about the operation were passed on, but an informal approval was sought.”

    When A US helicopter crashed into bin Laden’s compound, the cover story was abandoned. The decision “completely … Pakistan” by leaving it alone to deal with the consequences of a hugely unpopular operation.

    The author says that while he could not be independently confirm the information, “it has the virtue of explaining why the Obama administration did not press to end military aid to Pakistan when bin Laden was found 800 yards from its officer training facility.”

    The book also gives intriguing details about the walled-compound where bin Laden was hiding, which CIA analysts estimated cost well over $1 million to build. It had no telephone, Internet, cable-television, or electrical wires attached to it.

    A CIA team gained access to Pakistan’s official building-permit and ownership records. The paperwork indicated that the building permit for this specially constructed enclave was issued in 2005 and that bin Laden’s courier, Omar al-Kuwaiti, was listed as the owner, under the name Arshad Khan. His brother Abrar was listed as a co-owner.

    “The record held another surprise. The land for the bin Laden lair seemed to have been carved out of property owned by the Kakul Military Academy,” Mr Miniter claims.

    The book also disputes Obama administration’s claim that the al-Qaeda leader was killed in a forty-minute fire-fight. “Few shots were fired and the mission was completed in less than twenty minutes.”

    As the elite US commando team, known as the SEALs, entered the compound, Omar al-Kuwaiti emerged with an AK-47 and was instantly felled by a single shot. The bullet passed through him and killed his wife, who was standing a few feet behind.

    His brother Abrar would die within a minute when he, too, stepped out into the night with an automatic weapon.

    The book also shows that while the Pakistani military claimed to have no knowledge of the operation until after it was over, OBL’s neighbours were knocking at the door as soon as the raid began.

    “With the gunshots and the helicopter crash, the neighbours appeared. In perfect Pashto, (a CIA) translator acted the art of a Pakistani policeman. “Go back to your houses. There is a security operation under way,” he said.

    Although the Pakistan Military Academy was only a 1,000 yards away from the compound, no military personnel came to enquire what was happening, not even after a helicopter crashed.

    At 4:18 p.m. Washington time, the SEAL’s finally reached bin Laden. Within two minutes bin Laden, his son and his protectors were dead.”

    The book also claims that key clues to bin Laden’s hideout, especially the identity of the courier who was his main link to the outside world, were first uncovered in the Bush years.

    The CIA found bin Laden’s hideout in the first few months of the Obama administration. “Yet it took the president almost two years to make a decision to act on this valuable intelligence as he deliberated and delayed,” says the author.

    “Mr Obama was often disengaged as the bin Laden operation took shape; he left critical decisions to the then-CIA director Leon Panetta, then-Secretary of Defence Robert Gates and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Obama feared taking responsibility for a risky raid that might go tragically wrong.”

    A single call to al-Kuwaiti, lasting less than a minute, gave him away in 2009. America’s electronic sleuths were tracking al-Kuwaiti through his mobile phone. A technical team mapped the locations of every phone al-Kuwaiti made a call to or received a call from. It showed red dots all over Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    A covert ground team eventually spotted al-Kuwaiti himself in the Bilal Town section of Abbottabad. He liked to roam the busy streets of Abbottabad in a white sport-utility vehicle, with a distinctive red rhino emblazoned on its spare tire cover. It made him easy to follow.

    Within weeks al-Kuwaiti was tracked repeatedly entering and exiting a mysterious walled compound. Inside the protective walls was a three-story tower with concrete-block privacy walls screenings it balconies.

    Mr Panetta had previously ordered surveillance by satellite and drone aircraft. In April 2009, a ground team also began an intense surveillance.

    What if it was not OBL? “It does not matter,” Mr Panetta responded, “if it isn’t bin Laden, then it’s another very senior al-Qaeda leader.”

    Initially, a drone or a B-2 bomber cruise missile, Mrs Clinton and Mr Gates both supported but another closed Obama aide Valerie Jarrett, opposed.

    An undercover ground team was sent into Abbottabad, and they soon learned there was another family living with the couriers and that the composition of that family matched bin Laden’s.

    The covert CIA team tried various ruses to learn the identity of the compound residents, including free door-to-door polio immunisation.

    President Obama realised that an air strike could kill non-combatants, provoking enormous outrage in Pakistan.

    In January 2010, President Obama ordered Vice Admiral Bill McRaven, a former Navy Seal, ran the Joint Special Operations Command, to develop a range of military operations. The SEALs’ Team Six was formed but commander was not informed bin Laden was the target.

    At a March 14, 2011 White House Situation Room, President Obama decided Pakistan should be kept in the dark while America made its plans.

    Bombing was ruled out. “All it has to be is about 1,000 yards and it hits the Pakistan Military Academy,” said a senior CIA official. Also, bombing would not produce conclusive evidence that bin Laden was dead.

    President Obama’s national security team was particularly worried about Pakistan. The allied government was always vocally opposed to operations on its soil, in that nation’s press at least. Al-Qaeda and other extremist groups remained popular in Pakistan and parties allied with them ideologically usually commanded more than one-third of the vote in elections.

    In private, Pakistan usually asked for some wiggle-room to deny knowing about a drone operation for internal political reasons.


    Wonder how many more articles will be written on the subject

  17. #57
    Senior Moderator Superkaif's Avatar
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    Pakistan summons senior US diplomat over drone strikes

    ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s Foreign Office on Thursday summoned a senior American diplomat to protest against US drone strikes in the country’s troubled tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

    According to a statement issued by the Foreign Office spokesman, the US Embassy in Pakistan was “démarched on recent drone strikes in North Waziristan.”

    Pakistani officials told the diplomat, who was not identified, that the attacks were unacceptable, unlawful and a violation of the country’s sovereignty.

    “A senior US diplomat was called to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and informed that the drone strikes were unlawful, against international law and a violation of Pakistan’s sovereignty,” said an official statement.

    “It was emphatically stated that such attacks were unacceptable.”

    The latest drone attack in North Waziristan came Tuesday when an unmanned American aircraft fired missiles at a vehicle near the tribal agency’s Shnakhura village, killing five suspected militants and injuring two. Officials said the area of the drone attack is dominated by anti-US militant commander Hafiz Gul Bahadur.

    The recent spike in drone action has threatens to add tensions to relations between the two allies, just as they appeared to be improving. The covert CIA drone program has drawn strong criticism in Pakistan. Pakistani officials charge such strikes violate their country’s sovereignty. Many Pakistanis complain that the strikes kill innocent civilians.

    Pakistan summons senior US diplomat over drone strikes | DAWN.COM

    Lets hope this is not lip service and the intent they have is followed up.

  18. #58
    Senior Member Hope's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superkaif View Post
    Lets hope this is not lip service and the intent they have is followed up.[/B]
    Depends if the senior US diplomat brings his cheque book...
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  19. #59
    Administrator Aryan_B's Avatar
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    This is a waste of time. If our govt and PA wanted to stop it they could

  20. #60
    Senior Member Neo's Avatar
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    This government won't do anything, it's all PR (public rubbish) to bank votes. Things will be a lot different if PTI comes into power.
    I hope she does.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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