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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Ex-Mossad chief: Peace will elude us until we treat Palestinians with dignity

    Efraim Halevy attacks Netanyahu and Bennett for their policies on Jerusalem, says elections offer ‘a choice the likes of which we have never had’

    BY RAPHAEL AHREN December 14, 2014, 3:29 pm
    Former Mossad chief Efraim Halevy (photo credit: CC BY-SA Eli Itkin/Wikimedia Commons)



    WRITERS



    Raphael Ahren Raphael Ahren is the diplomatic correspondent at The Times of Israel.

    There will never be peace in the Middle East as long as Israelis don’t treat the Palestinians as equals, Efraim Halevy said last week, accusing senior government officials of advancing “condescending” policies toward the Palestinians.

    In a wide-ranging interview with The Times of Israel, the former head of the Mossad intelligence agency accused the outgoing government, especially Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Economy Minister Naftali Bennett, of having violated the fragile status quo in Jerusalem. The elections of March 2015 are not merely a referendum on Israel’s leadership, he said, but constitute an unprecedented opportunity to determine Israel’s policy vis-à-vis the peace process.

    Israel’s 1979 peace treaty with Egypt was made possible by the fact that both sides considered themselves the victors of the Yom Kippur War six years earlier, according to Halevy. Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat could only reach an agreement because they each felt “equal” — and precisely such a framework of equality, which allows for both sides to feel dignified, is needed for peace between Israelis and Palestinians, he said.

    “I do not think we will make any progress until that moment arrives, and I fear that it will take a very long time before it happens, if at all,” he said. “And if it never happens, there will never be peace between us and the Palestinians. And if it never happens, we’re sentenced to a very long term of struggle.”

    Israel will survive even in the absence of peace because the state faces no existential threats, added Halevy, who headed the Mossad from 1998 until 2002, before going on to serve as national security adviser to prime minister Ariel Sharon. “But what will be the quality of our survival? I don’t know.”

    The upcoming Knesset elections are Israel’s last chance to choose a leadership that embraces peace and reconciliation, Halevy claimed.

    “The election is not just a plebiscite on the question of who is going to be prime minister. The question is what will be the policy. And by choosing A or B or C you are supporting a policy. Security is not a policy. Everybody supports security. But people interpret security differently,” he said. “The choice this time is a choice the likes of which we have never had before.”

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu casts his ballot at a polling station in Jerusalem (photo by Kobi Gideon/Flash90)

    When Israelis head to the polls on March 17, 2015, they will determine “how we treat the other side,” the 80-year-old London native said Tuesday in his Jerusalem office. “A decision this time will be not on who will do but also on what will be done. Not on who will determine the policies but on what will be the policies.”

    Discussing the outcome of this summer’s Operation Protective Edge in Gaza, Halevy suggested Netanyahu’s goal was simply to restore quiet and prevent Hamas from attaining its goals. Rather than formulating any concrete political objectives, the prime minister was content with achieving quiet from the other side in exchange for quiet from Israel.

    “Our achievement was not something constructive. The achievement was that the other side didn’t get anything. What did we get? We didn’t need anything. We weren’t seeking anything political, because we don’t want to do business with them,” Halevy said.

    Israelis face a difficult problem in dealing with the Palestinians, the former spymaster continued. “In our gut, we feel, some way or another, that it’s either them or us. We believe we’re superior to them. We believe that we’re better organized, better equipped, much more experienced. We know how to conduct our affairs. And actually we’re in control. And it’s almost humanly impossible in a situation like this to conduct a negotiation because for it to produce something in the end, you have to reach the point where you’re on par with the other side.”

    Halevy criticized Bennett over an op-ed he published in The New York Times on November 5, in which the Jewish Home party leader promoted his vision of a one-state solution. Bennett’s plan includes annexing 60 percent of the West Bank and upgrading “Palestinian autonomy” in the remaining part. Dismissing the two-state paradigm, Bennett argued for “massive upgrade of roads and infrastructure” and for building “economic bridges of peace” between Israelis and Palestinians living in one state. “The secret is bottom-up peace,” Bennett wrote.

    While Halevy was careful to avoid explicit personal attacks, he made plain his strong disapproval of Bennett’s plan.

    Naftali Bennett (L), leader of the Jewish Home party, seen with Jewish Home MK Uri Ariel at a faction meeting in the Knesset on October 28, 2013. (photo credit: Miriam Alster/Flash90)

    For any kind of peace negotiations to succeed, Israel needs to try to look at the issue from the perspective of the other side, “and not to be condescending,” Halevy argued. “What is ‘bottom-up peace’? Is it not a condescending term? Look, you’re at the bottom now. We’re not at the bottom, you’re at the bottom. We don’t need bottom-up, we’re at the top already. The use of the term bottom-up means to say you’re at the bottom.”

    Asked for a response, a Jewish Home official close to Bennett said that for 20 years Israel tried to achieve a two-state solution, “but it failed and therefore it is time to open up to new ideas instead of immediately dismissing them.”

    Bennett’s plan entails offering Israeli citizenship to Palestinians living in the parts of the West Bank he wishes to annex, and Halevy questioned whether Bennett also intends to grant citizenship to the 400,000 Arab inhabitants of East Jerusalem who currently only have residency. “I don’t think all this has been thought out,” Halevy charged. (The Jewish Home official responded that East Jerusalemites have been eligible for citizenship since Israel annexed that part of the city, and that hundreds of Palestinians make use of this option every month.)

    Halevy also took the current government to task for its policies on Jerusalem, especially for allowing nationalist Jews to move into the eastern part of the city. In October, dozens of Israelis moved into houses in Silwan, an Arab neighborhood in East Jerusalem, which drew much international criticism.


    Beit Yehonatan, a building acquired by Ateret Kohanim in Silwan (photo credit: Abir Sultan/Flash 90)

    Bennett celebrated this as a “historic event” and Netanyahu, too, defended the move. “Arabs in Jerusalem purchase homes freely in the west of the city and nobody says that’s forbidden. I don’t intend to tell Jews that they can’t buy homes in East Jerusalem,” the prime minister said at the time. Housing Minister Uri Ariel, a member of Bennett’s party, even said he considered moving to the neighborhood.

    “We decided that we’re going to start moving in Jerusalem,” Halevy fumed. “This is a change in policy, a change in strategy.” Israeli peace negotiators have long argued that of the four so-called core issues — borders, security, refugees and Jerusalem — the Holy City should be discussed last because it’s the most complex and passion-stirring topic of all. “What we’ve done now is that we’ve changed the strategy. We say, no, not Jerusalem at the end, Jerusalem now. Now they’re going to move in [to Silwan]. Now we’re going to change.”

    Criticism of the move in Silwan united world leaders from different parts of the globe, even those usually at odds with each other. “We’ve put Jerusalem on the front burner,” he said. “Whether [Netanyahu] actually sanctioned what happened in Silwan is irrelevant. The policy is: I can build and live anywhere in Jerusalem I want because I am a Jew.”

    In the eyes of any objective observer, the Israeli government was making moves in Jerusalem that are “not conducive to the status quo,” he charged.

    Halevy was hesitant to delineate his own ideas about achieving peace. He merely said that the two-state solution is the most desirable but least probable scenario, while a one-state arrangement is the least desirable but most probable outcome. “In a situation like this you have to look for something in between,” all the while making sure that both sides gain something and feel respectable.

    There is no word in Hebrew for dignity, he quoted a friend observing once. The Arab world has long felt deeply inferior, and Israelis are basically telling Arabs that they don’t suffer from an inferiority complex but are indeed inferior, Halevy said. “The problem we have had over the years has been that they have sought dignity and the last thing we ever thought of was addressing them in a manner that gave them a feeling of some dignity.”


    Read more: Ex-Mossad chief: Peace will elude us until we treat Palestinians with dignity | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-moss...#ixzz3LufVVucT
    Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook
    The Following User Says Thank You to Solomon2 For This Useful Post: Greenstar

    “Real peace cannot ever happen while the world allows itself to be taken hostage by lies.” — Elder of Ziyon

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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Israel-Palestinians: Kerry meets Lavrov in Rome



    US Secretary of State John Kerry has met his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, in Rome on the eve of talks with the Israeli prime minister.

    Mr Lavrov opened the talks at the US embassy with a call to work together to prevent any further deterioration in the situation in the Middle East.

    Benjamin Netanyahu is due to meet Mr Kerry as EU states push for a deal on Palestinian statehood.

    Israel is resisting calls for an early withdrawal from the West Bank.

    A Palestinian draft resolution being circulated by Jordan at the UN calls for the Israelis to leave the occupied territories - the territory of the proposed future Palestinian state - by November 2016.

    According to AFP news agency, the draft will be submitted to the UN Security Council on Wednesday.

    But Western diplomats who spoke to Reuters news agency rejected the draft with its deadline as "unbalanced".

    Short notice
    Sunday's talks, which were also expected to cover Ukraine and Syria, ended without a news conference.

    Welcoming his Russian guest, Mr Kerry said: "[I appreciate] Foreign Minister Lavrov changing his schedule and travelling on short notice to be here and we look forward to our conversations."



    "I am convinced that the Middle East settlement issues need to be solved urgently and we must not allow the situation to deteriorate," Mr Lavrov said for his part.

    "I am greatly interested in discussing what we can do together to avoid this."

    Israeli relations with the Palestinians worsened this autumn, after the Gaza conflict and amid growing unrest in Jerusalem.

    France, the UK and Germany are drafting an alternative UN resolution which calls for a return to negotiations with a view to achieving a two-state solution by which Israel and a Palestinian state would co-exist.

    Mr Netanyahu said on Sunday that pulling out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem now would bring "Islamic extremists to the suburbs of Tel Aviv and to the heart of Jerusalem".

    US officials quoted by AFP said the US administration had not yet decided whether to back or veto any UN resolution on the issue.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30471854

  3. #1583
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon2 View Post
    Ex-Mossad chief: Peace will elude us until we treat Palestinians with dignity

    Efraim Halevy attacks Netanyahu and Bennett for their policies on Jerusalem, says elections offer ‘a choice the likes of which we have never had’

    BY RAPHAEL AHREN December 14, 2014, 3:29 pm
    Former Mossad chief Efraim Halevy (photo credit: CC BY-SA Eli Itkin/Wikimedia Commons)



    WRITERS



    Raphael Ahren Raphael Ahren is the diplomatic correspondent at The Times of Israel.

    There will never be peace in the Middle East as long as Israelis don’t treat the Palestinians as equals, Efraim Halevy said last week, accusing senior government officials of advancing “condescending” policies toward the Palestinians.

    In a wide-ranging interview with The Times of Israel, the former head of the Mossad intelligence agency accused the outgoing government, especially Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Economy Minister Naftali Bennett, of having violated the fragile status quo in Jerusalem. The elections of March 2015 are not merely a referendum on Israel’s leadership, he said, but constitute an unprecedented opportunity to determine Israel’s policy vis-à-vis the peace process.

    Israel’s 1979 peace treaty with Egypt was made possible by the fact that both sides considered themselves the victors of the Yom Kippur War six years earlier, according to Halevy. Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat could only reach an agreement because they each felt “equal” — and precisely such a framework of equality, which allows for both sides to feel dignified, is needed for peace between Israelis and Palestinians, he said.

    “I do not think we will make any progress until that moment arrives, and I fear that it will take a very long time before it happens, if at all,” he said. “And if it never happens, there will never be peace between us and the Palestinians. And if it never happens, we’re sentenced to a very long term of struggle.”

    Israel will survive even in the absence of peace because the state faces no existential threats, added Halevy, who headed the Mossad from 1998 until 2002, before going on to serve as national security adviser to prime minister Ariel Sharon. “But what will be the quality of our survival? I don’t know.”

    The upcoming Knesset elections are Israel’s last chance to choose a leadership that embraces peace and reconciliation, Halevy claimed.

    “The election is not just a plebiscite on the question of who is going to be prime minister. The question is what will be the policy. And by choosing A or B or C you are supporting a policy. Security is not a policy. Everybody supports security. But people interpret security differently,” he said. “The choice this time is a choice the likes of which we have never had before.”

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu casts his ballot at a polling station in Jerusalem (photo by Kobi Gideon/Flash90)

    When Israelis head to the polls on March 17, 2015, they will determine “how we treat the other side,” the 80-year-old London native said Tuesday in his Jerusalem office. “A decision this time will be not on who will do but also on what will be done. Not on who will determine the policies but on what will be the policies.”

    Discussing the outcome of this summer’s Operation Protective Edge in Gaza, Halevy suggested Netanyahu’s goal was simply to restore quiet and prevent Hamas from attaining its goals. Rather than formulating any concrete political objectives, the prime minister was content with achieving quiet from the other side in exchange for quiet from Israel.

    “Our achievement was not something constructive. The achievement was that the other side didn’t get anything. What did we get? We didn’t need anything. We weren’t seeking anything political, because we don’t want to do business with them,” Halevy said.

    Israelis face a difficult problem in dealing with the Palestinians, the former spymaster continued. “In our gut, we feel, some way or another, that it’s either them or us. We believe we’re superior to them. We believe that we’re better organized, better equipped, much more experienced. We know how to conduct our affairs. And actually we’re in control. And it’s almost humanly impossible in a situation like this to conduct a negotiation because for it to produce something in the end, you have to reach the point where you’re on par with the other side.”

    Halevy criticized Bennett over an op-ed he published in The New York Times on November 5, in which the Jewish Home party leader promoted his vision of a one-state solution. Bennett’s plan includes annexing 60 percent of the West Bank and upgrading “Palestinian autonomy” in the remaining part. Dismissing the two-state paradigm, Bennett argued for “massive upgrade of roads and infrastructure” and for building “economic bridges of peace” between Israelis and Palestinians living in one state. “The secret is bottom-up peace,” Bennett wrote.

    While Halevy was careful to avoid explicit personal attacks, he made plain his strong disapproval of Bennett’s plan.

    Naftali Bennett (L), leader of the Jewish Home party, seen with Jewish Home MK Uri Ariel at a faction meeting in the Knesset on October 28, 2013. (photo credit: Miriam Alster/Flash90)

    For any kind of peace negotiations to succeed, Israel needs to try to look at the issue from the perspective of the other side, “and not to be condescending,” Halevy argued. “What is ‘bottom-up peace’? Is it not a condescending term? Look, you’re at the bottom now. We’re not at the bottom, you’re at the bottom. We don’t need bottom-up, we’re at the top already. The use of the term bottom-up means to say you’re at the bottom.”

    Asked for a response, a Jewish Home official close to Bennett said that for 20 years Israel tried to achieve a two-state solution, “but it failed and therefore it is time to open up to new ideas instead of immediately dismissing them.”

    Bennett’s plan entails offering Israeli citizenship to Palestinians living in the parts of the West Bank he wishes to annex, and Halevy questioned whether Bennett also intends to grant citizenship to the 400,000 Arab inhabitants of East Jerusalem who currently only have residency. “I don’t think all this has been thought out,” Halevy charged. (The Jewish Home official responded that East Jerusalemites have been eligible for citizenship since Israel annexed that part of the city, and that hundreds of Palestinians make use of this option every month.)

    Halevy also took the current government to task for its policies on Jerusalem, especially for allowing nationalist Jews to move into the eastern part of the city. In October, dozens of Israelis moved into houses in Silwan, an Arab neighborhood in East Jerusalem, which drew much international criticism.


    Beit Yehonatan, a building acquired by Ateret Kohanim in Silwan (photo credit: Abir Sultan/Flash 90)

    Bennett celebrated this as a “historic event” and Netanyahu, too, defended the move. “Arabs in Jerusalem purchase homes freely in the west of the city and nobody says that’s forbidden. I don’t intend to tell Jews that they can’t buy homes in East Jerusalem,” the prime minister said at the time. Housing Minister Uri Ariel, a member of Bennett’s party, even said he considered moving to the neighborhood.

    “We decided that we’re going to start moving in Jerusalem,” Halevy fumed. “This is a change in policy, a change in strategy.” Israeli peace negotiators have long argued that of the four so-called core issues — borders, security, refugees and Jerusalem — the Holy City should be discussed last because it’s the most complex and passion-stirring topic of all. “What we’ve done now is that we’ve changed the strategy. We say, no, not Jerusalem at the end, Jerusalem now. Now they’re going to move in [to Silwan]. Now we’re going to change.”

    Criticism of the move in Silwan united world leaders from different parts of the globe, even those usually at odds with each other. “We’ve put Jerusalem on the front burner,” he said. “Whether [Netanyahu] actually sanctioned what happened in Silwan is irrelevant. The policy is: I can build and live anywhere in Jerusalem I want because I am a Jew.”

    In the eyes of any objective observer, the Israeli government was making moves in Jerusalem that are “not conducive to the status quo,” he charged.

    Halevy was hesitant to delineate his own ideas about achieving peace. He merely said that the two-state solution is the most desirable but least probable scenario, while a one-state arrangement is the least desirable but most probable outcome. “In a situation like this you have to look for something in between,” all the while making sure that both sides gain something and feel respectable.

    There is no word in Hebrew for dignity, he quoted a friend observing once. The Arab world has long felt deeply inferior, and Israelis are basically telling Arabs that they don’t suffer from an inferiority complex but are indeed inferior, Halevy said. “The problem we have had over the years has been that they have sought dignity and the last thing we ever thought of was addressing them in a manner that gave them a feeling of some dignity.”


    Read more: Ex-Mossad chief: Peace will elude us until we treat Palestinians with dignity | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-moss...#ixzz3LufVVucT
    Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

    So why doesn't Israel treat the Palestinians as equal? Why treat them like the Jews were treated like in WW2?

  4. #1584
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstar View Post
    So why doesn't Israel treat the Palestinians as equal? Why treat them like the Jews were treated like in WW2?
    The second part is obviously untrue: Israelis don't send Palestinian Arabs to gas chambers, or line up their civilians to be shot, etc.

    The first part - why not treated as equals - I guess may have two parts: one, that Arabs and Muslims have a long history of degrading Jews and some of this feeling is returned; and two, the Zionist movement dating back to Ben-Gurion held and proved themselves as more productive and flexible workers than the Arabs. As a good socialist, I suppose that on the "dignity through labor" scale the Jews thus ranked higher - though Ben-Gurion himself long pushed for cooperative development that included both Arabs and Jews.

    With improved education and changes to social and economic structures much has been done to increase individual Arabs' productivity. Collective initiative is developing via self-taxing and town hall-like governance in new Arab villages in formerly Jewish areas. (Roughly put, Jews from farms selling their land to Arabs to purchase land owned by Arabs on the coast and cities.)

    That's all for the Arabs who are Israeli citizens living in Israel. But for the Arabs in the non-Israeli areas, the Jews know that their value structure is different, that many have a family history of massacring Jews (Hebron) or of squatting upon Jewish-owned property (Jerusalem), or of stoning passing Jews at random. The Jews of Israel know quite well they aren't mirror images of either the Nazis or such Arabs. So if I was an Israeli, I'd wonder, "What sort of dignity do such Arabs deserve?"

    The ex-Mossad head has an interesting insight - and obviously access to more personal experiences between Jews and Arabs in Judea-Samaria, Gaza, the Golan, etc. He thinks Jews should credit Arabs with more dignity. He doesn't explain why or how. But it appears to be a new and fresh approach.
    “Real peace cannot ever happen while the world allows itself to be taken hostage by lies.” — Elder of Ziyon

  5. #1585
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon2 View Post
    The second part is obviously untrue: Israelis don't send Palestinian Arabs to gas chambers, or line up their civilians to be shot, etc.
    Don't need to do you? You buy the media and then simply shoot the Palestinians. Why be messy and use gas chambers?

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    Palestinians set deadline for Israeli occupation

    UNITED NATIONS: Israel suffered back-to-back diplomatic setbacks in Europe on Wednesday, while the Palestinians at the United Nations set a deadline for an Israeli withdrawal from lands captured nearly 50 years ago by the end of 2017.

    In Geneva, the international community delivered a stinging rebuke to Israel's settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem, saying the practice violates Israel's responsibilities as an occupying power.

    The declaration adopted by the conference of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which governs the rules of war and military occupation, emphasised a prohibition on colonising occupied land and insisted that international humanitarian law be obeyed in areas affected by the conflict between Israel and Palestinians.

    It called for “all serious violations” to be investigated and those responsible for breaches to be brought to justice.

    “This is a signal and we can hope that words count,” said Swiss ambassador Paul Fivat, who chaired the one-day meeting.

    The US and Israel did not take part.

    Israel's UN Mission blasted the gathering, saying: “It confers legitimacy on terrorist organisations and dictatorial regimes wherever they are, while condemning a democratic country fighting terrorism in accordance with international law.”

    In Luxembourg, meanwhile, a European Union court ordered the Palestinian group Hamas removed from the EU terrorist list for procedural reasons but said the 28-nation bloc can maintain asset freezes against Hamas members for now.

    The Islamic militant group, which calls for the destruction of Israel, hailed the decision, but Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu expressed outrage.

    “It seems that too many in Europe, on whose soil 6 million Jews were slaughtered, have learned nothing,” Netanyahu said, adding that Israel would continue to defend itself “against the forces of terror and tyranny and hypocrisy.”

    The EU court ruled that the terrorist listing of Hamas was based on press and Internet reports and not on “acts examined and confirmed in decisions of competent authorities."

    The EU, which has two months to appeal, was considering its next step. In New York, an Arab-backed draft resolution on ending Israel's occupation of lands captured in 1967 was submitted Wednesday evening to the UN Security Council for a possible vote, Palestinian Ambassador Riyad Mansour said.

    However, Mansour said the Arab-backed resolution does not close the door on further negotiations on the issue, including with the United States, “if they are ready and willing.”

    The US, as a permanent council member, often has vetoed measures targeting Israel in the past. And Palestinian Foreign Minister Riad Malki earlier said the actual vote might be put off, suggesting a compromise is in the works to avoid a clash in the council.

    The draft, sponsored by Jordan on behalf of the Palestinians, sets the end of 2017 as a deadline for an Israeli withdrawal from war-won lands the Palestinians are seeking for a state. The deadline has been pushed back from that of November 2016 in the earlier draft.

    Israel fiercely opposes any suggestions that the Security Council can set a framework for Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, which broke down again in the spring after the two sides couldn't agree on the ground rules.

    The resolution also welcomes the idea of holding an international conference to launch negotiations on reaching a peace agreement.

    The United States was scrambling Wednesday to avert a showdown at the Security Council.

    US Secretary of State John Kerry was talking to European and Arab foreign ministers about a potential meeting this weekend in the Mideast, possibly with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

    In Washington, State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said the Obama administration is studying the EU's court decision but the US continues to consider Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

    The US hasn't said how it would respond to the Jordanian resolution, but Kerry took a hard line in meetings this week in Europe against any effort that could interfere with Israel's elections in mid-March.

    “We want to find the most constructive way of doing something that therefore will not have unintended consequences, but also can stem the violence,” Kerry told reporters in London on Tuesday.

    He said the situation marks “a particularly sensitive moment” given rising tensions between Israel and Palestinians.

    Israel did one win diplomatic engagement in Europe on Wednesday, this one at the European Parliament. The lawmakers meeting in Strasbourg, France, stopped short of pushing for an outright recognition of a Palestinian state, urging renewed peace talks instead.

    Legislators voted 498-88 in favor of a compromise resolution supporting “in principle recognition of Palestinian statehood” — but as part of a two-state solution with Israel.

    The resolution supports two states on the basis of 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as the capital of both.

    http://www.dawn.com/news/1151611/pal...eli-occupation

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    Senior Member Solomon2's Avatar
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Express View Post
    Don't need to do you? You buy the media and then simply shoot the Palestinians. Why be messy and use gas chambers?


    Information Warfare: Living The Fantasy Is Easier Than Dealing With Reality

    December 19, 2014: In early December Israel announced it was opening investigations into eight incidents from the 50 day war with Hamas in July and August. These incidents were cited by Palestinians as Israeli war crimes. Many Palestinians cannot accept the fact that they fired thousands of rockets into Israel and deployed thousands of gunmen against a smaller force of Israeli troops who entered Gaza yet at the end of it all there were over 2,000 dead Palestinians (most of them Hamas members) and only 73 dead on the Israeli side (six of them civilians and one of those a foreign worker). To Palestinians this is clear evidence that the Israelis must have done something really, really evil to achieve such an outcome and whatever they did must be a war crime. The Israelis have learned two things about such accusations; they are almost always false and they fall apart on close examination. The Palestinians are not dismayed by these failures and often come to believe their own lies. But the Israelis continue to win by investigating the war crimes accusations and uncovering more Palestinian deceit and self-delusion.


    An example of this occurred in September when Palestinians in Australia were perplexed when they were criticized for using a photo of children killed in Syria to represent Palestinian children killed by Israeli bombs in Gaza during the 50 day war. To Palestinians the truth is clear; Israel is evil, Palestinians are innocent victims and any other interpretation of this means the critic is working for the Israelis. Moreover many Moslem activists like to cite passages in their scripture (the Koran) that justifies lying to kaffirs (non-Moslems) in the defense of Islam. Since Palestinians are striving to remove many kaffirs (the Jews) from Israel they are defending Islam and anything goes. Why don’t those dumb kaffirs understand this? The response of non-Moslem Australians to a deliberate Palestinian deception mystified many Palestinians.


    The Australia incident was not exceptional but was typical of long-held Palestinian attitudes. Earlier in 2014 there was a similar example of this much closer to Israel. In this instance the Palestinians thought they had scored another media triumph when they released a video of an Israeli soldier, guarding an Israeli settlement in the West Bank, being harassed by several young Palestinian men. The soldier eventually puts a magazine of ammo into his rifle and points it at the most threatening of the Palestinians and tells him to back off or else. Nothing happens except that the Palestinian men retreat. The video was meant to show the brutality of Israeli security measures against Palestinians but, much to the consternation and disappointment of the Palestinians many (including a lot of Israelis) saw it as further evidence that the Palestinians do not want peace and only want to cause trouble.


    The reaction to this incident on the Internet was surprising to Israeli military leaders. Hundreds of Israeli soldiers left comments on sites where the video appeared and pointed out that it is the Palestinians who are the aggressors and that Israeli soldiers operate under a growing list of rules about what they can (very little) and cannot do in response to Palestinian threats and violence. Equally disturbing was the fact that soldiers were often breaking rules by discussing these matters on the Internet. But it was also obvious that there was a lot of anger and frustration among the soldiers who are reservists and regularly called up to spend a month or so providing security in the West Bank. Those for and against the Israeli presence in the West Bank used the incident to support their views, but the soldiers were mostly frustrated at being caught in the middle of a dispute that the Palestinians and Arabs have refused to settle for decades and blame everyone but themselves for their predicament.


    These are not isolated incidents. Another example occurred in January 2014 when Hamas (the Palestinian terrorist group that rules the Gaza Strip) had its Twitter accounts suspended several times for violating the Twitter terms of service. Hamas was constantly advocating genocide and the use of terrorism against civilians. Hamas makes no secret about its desire to destroy Israel and kill any Jews who did not leave the region. Twitter points out that since Hamas has been designated (since 1997) as a Foreign Terrorist Organization it is against U.S. law for American firms to provide it with any kind of support. This is not always enforced, unless the terrorists seem to be making effective use of something and then the company in question is reminded of the law by the U.S. government.


    Hamas has long been using the Internet to get its message out, as well as to raise money and seek out recruits. Apparently they were becoming too blatant about describing their essential message (terror and genocide) and using accounts operated by Hamas. At the same time there were more and more non-Moslem media monitoring groups that were publicizing what Arab language media (of Hamas and other Islamic radical groups) were saying about their goals and methods. While these groups moderate their message in English, they are more blunt and scary in Arabic. This is not a translation issue, Hamas leaders want to kill lots of Jews and are not happy about their lack of success.


    In response to decades of this sort of anti-Israel propaganda the Israeli government have become more active in countering Palestinian efforts. This even more urgent as the Palestinians have succeeded in gaining the support of many in the West. The Palestinians have, as far as many Westerners are concerned, turned themselves into the persecuted and oppressed underdog with Israel depicted as the bad guy. This despite the fact that it is the Palestinians who have more often acted in bad faith and have been quite openly waging a terror campaign against Israel for over a decade. In response to this the Israeli government is feeding the foreign media more and more embarrassing details of Palestinian deceptions. Despite this, it’s been slow going, if only because most journalists are reluctant to admit they have been played by the Palestinians.


    A major part of this new Israeli Information War strategy is collect lots of evidence of Palestinian duplicity. Much of this is made possible by the growing use of digital security cameras and UAVs over Palestinian area. For several years now Israel has been placing more cameras (either fixed or in vehicles or aircraft) in areas where its forces confront angry, or armed, Palestinians. This is to get a video of what actually happened in situations where Palestinians get killed and then accuse the Israelis of war crimes. Often Israeli troops are being ambushed or otherwise on the defensive when they open fire. No matter, if Palestinians get hurt the Palestinians have learned that the media is willing to believe some outrageous lies and blame everything on the Israelis. All these videos, aggressively distributed by the Israelis, are becoming a real problem for Palestinian propagandists.


    Since 2000 Israel and the Palestinians have been fighting an Information War over who is doing the most damage to each other’s civilians. Both sides take a markedly different approach to how they deal with documenting and publicizing casualties. The Israelis photograph and record any available data on anyone killed in areas they control. In addition, the Israeli press (which includes pro and anti-government outlets) scrutinizes the deaths for possible headlines. So the Israeli count of who died, and whether or not they were fighters or unarmed civilians, is generally considered accurate. The Palestinians, on the other hand, severely restrict media access to combat areas they control. The Israelis do this as well, but not as consistently, persistently and deceptively as the Palestinians.


    Palestinians also play with the numbers and have even been caught staging funerals using "corpses" that were actually live people pretending to be dead and representing fake fatalities. In at least one case an Israeli UAV camera caught one of these phony funerals in which the corpse fell off the stretcher, got up and got back under the shroud. The video of this went viral and from that the Israelis realized that they had lots of similar video evidence of Palestinian efforts to deceive the media. So now the Israelis are turning that around with energetic searches for such video or photographic evidence of Palestinian deceptions, and then getting that rebuttal out there in a big way.


    This has hurt the Palestinians in other ways. The Palestinians will claim as high a number of dead as Palestinians believe they can get away with. In cases where a third party was able to double check, the Palestinians were found to be exaggerating the number of their dead by five to ten times. Now, after years of having their deceptions revealed, the exaggeration is a lot less. That is considered preferable to being shamed by another exaggerated count being exposed as a lie.


    Palestinian leaders are also getting into trouble with many of their Western donors over public statements by Palestinian officials made in Arabic that got translated by Israeli activists and distributed. One example of this occurred in early 2012 after a Palestinian civilian stabbed a Jewish civilian to death in the West Bank. Palestinian officials promptly went on local electronic media praising the killer as a heroic fighter for Palestinian freedom. Another official praised the enterprise of the killer and urged more such killings. He gushed that, "If we had a nuke, we'd have used it this very morning." That official was also heard discussing how peace negotiations with Israel are only a tactical ploy, to weaken Israel until Palestinians are strong enough to kill all the Jews.


    All this inflammatory stuff was said in Arabic, because the Palestinian officials know that this sort of thing is very popular with Arabs and hard to explain to Westerners. All this is because of some advice they took from their former Soviet patrons, who urged the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) to reform their educational system so that after a few decades all the children going through it would be adults with a very different view of Israel and the world. That worked and the result is that, in this fantasy world employed by most Palestinians, Israel does not exist. Oh, Israel is there for all to see, but in Palestinian schools the maps of Israel are not labeled Israel. What is Israel is labeled as Palestinian, with perhaps a footnote to mention that Zionist oppressors temporarily occupy a lot of Palestinian territory. The Israelis are depicted as bad people, who steal from the virtuous Palestinians and are assisted by other evil people, like the Americans. Everything bad that happens, including the rampant corruption of Palestinian politicians, is blamed on Israel. At the same time, Palestinian terrorists who have killed Israeli women and children are hailed as heroes and children are encouraged to be terrorists, especially suicidal ones. It’s not just the terrorists who get this treatment. Yasser Arafat, who led the effort to create the Palestine people and the fantasy Palestine taught in schools, died of apparent natural causes in 2010. Soon Palestinian children were being taught that Arafat was poisoned by Israelis.


    The basic problem is that, for the last two generations, it has been Palestinian policy to teach their children, and anyone that will listen to these Arab language screeds that Israel has no right to exist. The kids get indoctrinated with anti-Semitic propaganda at a young age and as adults they continue to be bombarded by anti-Semitic rants. Thus most Palestinians (unless they were educated outside of the Middle East) take it for granted that any peace deal with Israel is just a tactical move in the effort to eventually destroy Israel and drive all Jews from the Middle East. People outside the Middle East have a hard time comprehending this attitude. But it is very real, and can be seen on Palestinian web sites (not so much on the non-Arabic language ones, although even there the anti-Semitic line is leaking through more and more). Israel goes through the motions of negotiating, to keep its Western allies and trading partners happy, but few Jews in Israel see any chance of real peace with the Palestinians, given the current attitudes within the Palestinian community.


    Palestinian attitudes towards the non-existence of Israel goes beyond teaching their kids that Israel doesn’t even exist. While Arabs love to call Israelis "Nazis", it is the Arab world that is the true heir to the Adolph Hitler's vision of how the world should be. A major weapon in the Palestinian arsenal is anti-Semitism. For a long time, even before World War II, the racial hatred tactic was particularly popular in the Arab world. This was partly the result of Islamic radicalism, which pushed hatred of all non-Moslems, not just Jews. But as more Jews began moving into Jerusalem and surrounding areas in the late 19th century, more of the Moslem racial animosity was concentrated on Jews. This way the Palestinians could still solicit the West for charitable donations while still having some non-Moslems they could hate intensely.


    This is not the usual ethnic animosity found in Europe, but something more in line with the extreme violence of the Nazis. In fact, during World War II, the Nazis were very popular in the Arab world (and still are). Translations of Hitler’s “how to” book (Mein Kampf) are best sellers in the Arab world. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (the highest Islamic official in the area) spent most of World War II in Berlin to avoid arrest by the British. Iraq, which had become independent during the 1930s, declared itself a German ally in 1941 and was promptly invaded and re-conquered by three British divisions, before the Germans could get many troops into the territory of their new ally. After World War II, the Arab language media continued Nazi-grade anti-Semitism. The Arabs had enough sense to tone down this race hatred, and pro-Nazi, line in their non-Arab language media. But in Arabic, it’s all hate all the time.


    Over the last few decades, and especially since the end of the Cold War, many Westerners have adopted the anti-Semitic angle in denouncing Israeli attempts to defend itself against Palestinian terrorism. Such self-defense measures are now seriously discussed as "war crimes" in the West. To the Arabs, the very existence of Israel is a "war crime," but the Arabs have been unable to do much beyond fanaticizing about destroying Israel while at the same time teaching a new generation that even the historical facts of Jews in the Middle East are lies. Now they have many political activists and progressive thinkers in the West fanaticizing along with them. Tangible gains from this ethnic hatred strategy have been scant so far. Many in the West are appalled by it, and the leadership in most Western nations does not buy into it. But much of the popular media does, and incidents of anti-Semitism, including assault and murder, are on the increase in Europe. Arabs see their anti-Semitism strategy as a success, as Arabs tend to take solace in symbolism, given their lack of substantial progress in destroying Israel. So every anti-Semitic attack in Europe is a victory, as is every European politician who denounces Israel for non-existent war crimes, or ignores the very real atrocities that the Arabs commit against each other. To many Arabs, living the fantasy is easier than dealing with reality.


    The Palestinians believe that time, and God, are on their side. Meanwhile, they use negotiations to gain whatever small advantages they can. The ultimate goal, as is plainly displayed on official Palestinian web sites and official documents, is the expulsion of all Jews from what the United Nations erroneously calls “Israel.” While not all Palestinian students believe the lies, enough do to keep the others quiet or succeeding in fleeing to the West.
    “Real peace cannot ever happen while the world allows itself to be taken hostage by lies.” — Elder of Ziyon

  8. #1588
    Senior Member Greenstar's Avatar
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon2 View Post
    The second part is obviously untrue: Israelis don't send Palestinian Arabs to gas chambers, or line up their civilians to be shot, etc.
    Please don't. Your methods are more crueller. Slow strangulation of a culture and race id the Jewish game and you know it.

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    Senior Member Solomon2's Avatar
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenstar View Post
    Over 40 children slaughtered in the last 6 hours.

    Monday, December 22, 2014
    Fake "Child Victim" of the Day


    On July 30, PCHR reported:
    - At approximately 18:30, an Israeli drone fired a missile at a motor cart in Bani Suhaila. As a result, 4 Palestinian civilians, including 2 children, were killed: Mohammed Shawqi Mustafa Abu Hammad, 26; Ahmed Ismail Mohammed Abu Hammad, 31; Mohammed Mustafa Ismail Abu Hammad, 14; and Muhannad Ashraf Ismail al-Qarra, 17.

    Muhannad al-Qarra was, of course, considered one of the "children" killed mercilessly by Israel during the war.

    I turns out that he was an Islamic Jihad terrorist, whose obituary was just published.

    In that obituary we find that he eagerly became a member of Islamic Jihad's Saraya Brigades even though he was under 18. His family had many mujahadeen members.

    During the war al Qarra transported weapons to the terrorists in different areas of Gaza.

    His brother Mohammed reminisces how much Muhannad would talk about ejecting all the Jews from the land.

    Notice how the terror groups have been only slowly admitting how many of their members were killed, waiting until months after the meme of Israel killing mostly civilians was embedded in the world's consciousness. This is exactly what they did during Cast Lead as well, and I predicted on the first day of the war that it would happen again.

    (h/t Israellycool and Judge Dan)

    Posted by Elder of Ziyon at 10:30 AM



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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    [MENTION=1871]Solomon2[/MENTION] the title dr Goebells is deserved in your case. But then Israel and Zionism spawns liars and propagandists like you as there was no tomorrow. We look forward to the day America is bankrupt and your kind get tried and convicted. Nuremberg will be nothing to what will happen to you and your evil spawn

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    Senior Member Solomon2's Avatar
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabeel View Post
    [MENTION=1871]Solomon2[/MENTION] the title dr Goebells is deserved in your case. But then Israel and Zionism spawns liars and propagandists like you as there was no tomorrow. We look forward to the day America is bankrupt and your kind get tried and convicted. Nuremberg will be nothing to what will happen to you and your evil spawn
    It isn't surprising that Goebbles is at the top of your mind. Goebbles was known for his virulent antisemitism, love of violence, support for the genocide of Jews, and willingness to push any lie or twisted narrative to support the Nazi cause. I don't doubt you two would be great friends - perhaps you see Goebbles as a kind of mentor.

    I understand that you are frustrated. You've been parroting the line that Israelis bomb innocents for a long time now, here is Hamas coming out and admitting their previous story was a lie. So you may be upset at Hamas for tricking you unknowingly, or upset at Hamas for knowingly betraying if you knew you were perpetrating a lie and counted upon Hamas to back you up. But your mind is so fixed on Israel-hatred that the only outlet you permit yourself is to express hatred for Zionists!

    You should now be able to understand the logic of how your obsessive Israel-hatred has led to this displacement-type emotional illness. You and tens of millions of others, I don't doubt.
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    [MENTION=8908]Liberal Gun Owner[/MENTION] [MENTION=3880]Nabeel[/MENTION] lay of the personal abuse

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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon2 View Post
    It isn't surprising that Goebbles is at the top of your mind. Goebbles was known for his virulent antisemitism, love of violence, support for the genocide of Jews, and willingness to push any lie or twisted narrative to support the Nazi cause. I don't doubt you two would be great friends - perhaps you see Goebbles as a kind of mentor.

    I understand that you are frustrated. You've been parroting the line that Israelis bomb innocents for a long time now, here is Hamas coming out and admitting their previous story was a lie. So you may be upset at Hamas for tricking you unknowingly, or upset at Hamas for knowingly betraying if you knew you were perpetrating a lie and counted upon Hamas to back you up. But your mind is so fixed on Israel-hatred that the only outlet you permit yourself is to express hatred for Zionists!

    You should now be able to understand the logic of how your obsessive Israel-hatred has led to this displacement-type emotional illness. You and tens of millions of others, I don't doubt.
    Have to accept the amount of propaganda you spurt out with has an effect of anti Israelism in the sentiment you generate. You are a good propaganda merchant.

  14. #1594
    Senior Member Solomon2's Avatar
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Hamas bars Gaza children from Israel trip
    Associated Press By FARES AKRAM
    34 minutes ago

    GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Gaza's Hamas rulers prevented a group of children from entering Israel on Sunday for a postwar conciliatory trip meant to foster peace, Hamas and organizers said.

    The 37 children, most of whom have lost a parent in fighting between Hamas and Israel, were to enter Israel on Sunday and spend a week visiting Jewish and Arab communities and a zoo. They were also going to travel to the West Bank for a meeting with the Palestinian president.

    But a bus carrying the children and their adult chaperones was turned back when it reached the main crossing between Gaza and Israel. Hamas spokesman Eyad Bozum said the decision was made "to protect the culture of our children and our people" from normalizing relations with Israel. He said Hamas would make sure such a trip "will never happen again."

    Israel and Hamas fought a 50-day war this summer that killed more than 2,100 Palestinians and caused heavy damage in the impoverished coastal enclave. On the Israeli side, the fighting killed 72 people and disrupted the lives of millions of people.

    Yoel Marshak, an Israeli organizer, said the visit was meant to a show a positive side of Israel and promote peace.

    "These children will one day be the leaders of Gaza and they would have remembered this trip and known that we can live in peace, side by side," he said.

    Marshak said he received written approval for the trip three weeks ago from Hamas and that the cancellation came as a surprise. He said he and other organizers were working to reorganize the trip.

    Said Abu Luli, a 13-year-old Palestinian boy whose father was killed in an electrical accident in 2009, said he was disappointed he could not make the trip.

    "I was very happy that I will go and was saddened when we were prevented," he said in a telephone interview. "I was hoping to visit the places in the West Bank and our lands in Palestine," he added.


    Also: Hamas bars Gaza youths bereaved in war from visiting Israel (Reuters)
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Hamas spokesman Eyad Bozum said the decision was made "to protect the culture of our children and our people" from normalizing relations with Israel.
    Looks like someone is still stuck in 1947.

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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict


    The Palestinians' Real Enemy: Europe

    by Bassam Tawil • December 28, 2014 at 5:00 am
    To prevent this Palestinian State that Europeans seem determined to push down our throats, many people are discussing a "Palestinian Spring" revolution. They simply do not know what else to do to protect ourselves from these "Goodists" of Europe.
    Do they honestly think we will have better lives in a "Palestinian State"?What we talk about is how the Europeans and their diplomats are paying our leaders to kill the Jews for them -- with their money but with our lives -- so that they can finish the job without getting their hands dirty and still keep on feeling good about themselves.ISIS operatives are already in Egypt, ready to take over the Sinai Peninsula, and with their eyes set on Libya. Is this what the Europeans really want?

    Listening, in both English and Arabic, to the latest speeches of Palestinian Authority [PA] President Mahmoud Abbas and his fellow Fatah Central Committee members, we get the uncomfortable feeling that the Palestinian State, now being promoted in Europe, will not only be a threat to the stability of the entire region, but to us who have to keep living here, as well to those countries in Europe who promote it.

    As Palestinians discuss among themselves -- far from the diplomats in their five-star hotels -- rather than accept this "gift" that Europe seems determined to push down our throats, many people increasingly see no choice but to launch a "Palestinian Spring" revolution. It would not be, as you might think, to rid them of Israel but finally to rid us of our wretched leadership and corrupt system of government -- and to stop the European counties that are imposing this brutal system on us by financing it.

    We have been fortunate enough to see from Israel how a democracy works. So although a Palestinian Spring revolution might cause chaos in the region and elsewhere for a while, its chances of success are far more assured than in the other places in the Middle East, where it has been tried but has not always succeeded.
    We do not want to do this, of course, but if we are forced by Europe to have this corrupt dictatorship called Palestine, terrorist groups such as Hamas, Al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and ISIS will flood the West Bank in less than week, and our lives will be even worse than what we have now. We simply do not know what else to do to defend ourselves from these "Goodists" of Europe.

    The Palestinian leadership, which represses people rather than confers with them, would of course deny all this to the European diplomats. The Palestinian leaders just want to keep the funds coming and keep their jobs. And of course, the European diplomats do not talk to us, the man on the street, the frustrated rest of us. They only talk to each other, their "counterparts," as they call them, in their air-conditioned meeting rooms and hotels.
    What we talk about is how the Europeans and their diplomats are paying our leaders to kill the Jews for them -- with their money but with our lives -- so that they can finish the job without getting their hands dirty and still keep on feeling good about themselves.

    And they evidently think that we cannot see through this plan. And to thank us they will to trap us under another corrupt Arab dictatorship?

    It is not the fault of the Israelis. In a weird way, the Israelis are just the other victims whom the Europeans -- in collusion with our leaders -- are manipulating us to hate. The Europeans pay our leaders to shape how we think. It is a brainwashing that never lets up.

    The Europeans put their own people on trial for "hate speech" when they have said nothing but the truth; and yet they pour millions into non-stop propaganda and bloodthirsty hate-speech on our government-controlled TV -- the only kind we have here. They fund any baseless sewage our leaders can think up.

    The usual claim is "occupation," but the Israelis are only "occupying" the West Bank because we -- in the form of Jordan -- occupied land promised to them, and then repeatedly attacked them.

    A more recent claim is "settlements," but the Palestine Liberation Organization [PLO] was formed in 1964, before there were any "settlements," so what exactly was it planning to "liberate"? If you look at any Palestinian map to this day, it encompasses the entire country of Israel. To the Palestinian Authority and many Arabs and Muslims, all of Israel is one big "settlement." Last week, Fatah Central Committee member Tawfiq Tirawi said, "Haifa, Jaffa, Acre and Nazareth are Palestinian, despite the Americans and the Israelis." Next week it will be some other pretext.

    What is becoming more and more clear is that just about everything going wrong here can be laid at the feet of Europe, at the feet of the leaders there who fund and cheer on the corruption and lawlessness which they would not tolerate in their own countries for a minute, but which they expect us to.

    Palestine is here, exactly where it always was. It has been lived in for 4000 years, by Arabs, Christians, Jews and anyone else who showed up. The Roman Emperor Hadrian called it Iudaea. Later, in 135 CE, the Romans renamed it Syria Palaestina in an attempt to sever all connection to it by the Jews.[1] It was part of the Ottoman Empire until its dissolution in 1918, then called Palestine again under the British Mandate. After Israel's war of Independence in 1948, it was and still is called Israel.

    There never has been a Palestinian state. Ever. The West Bank was Jordanian, the Golan Heights were Syrian and the Gaza Strip was Egyptian.

    The truth is that PA President Mahmoud Abbas has been trying to turn the State of Israel into the State of Palestine. He has been trying to create confusion in Europe and at the UN -- evidently, unfortunately, with some success. He has been falsely accusing Israel of committing "genocide" in the Gaza Strip. Regardless of the fabricated numbers issued by Hamas, more than half of the 2,000 Gazans killed over the summer were Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorist operatives, not "innocent civilians." It was Hamas that ordered its own people onto the roofs of apartment buildings in Gaza while Gazans were firing rockets, mortars and missiles into Israel. It was Hamas that used its own people as human shields to prevent Israel from being able to defend itself, or, when it did, so there would be more Palestinian "dead babies" to show to the intimidated television crews, to make Israelis look villainous.[2]

    It is Hamas that expresses in both its charter and daily statements the intention of committing genocide on the Jews -- not the Israelis, the Jews.

    Article 7 of the Hamas charter openly calls for the genocide of the Jews, an act "legitimized" by Islam, as part of the religious legacy of Muhammad's oral tradition (the hadiths).[3]

    Abbas has also been calling for a "peaceful popular resistance" against the Israelis, by "using all available means" within "international law" -- courtesy of Europe. "The Palestinian resistance," evokes brave Frenchmen daring to attack Nazis, not Palestinian terrorists driving cars into people, emerging from tunnels to kill and kidnap kindergarteners, or slaughtering old men while they are praying.

    The truth is that Mahmoud Abbas' appeals to world leaders are to help him circumvent the Israeli government, peace negotiations and legally binding peace agreements, all in order to achieve a Palestinian state unilaterally -- without having to recognize Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people and without reaching a final status agreement with it.

    If I were Israeli, I would understand that when Mahmoud Abbas says he wants a safe passage between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, as well as full control of air and sea lanes, he means he wants to receive arms from Iran without interference.

    So, are we actually accusing the Jews of "genocide" while it is we who are striving kill all of them and drive them "into the sea"? Are the Europeans actually buying this nonsense? We all ask ourselves: If Europeans like to feel so righteous about themselves, then why are they acting as the accomplices and accessories to criminals? Does that not make them criminals, too?

    It is Abbas, who, instead of distancing himself from Hamas's ISIS-like dreams of establishing an Islamic Emirate on the ruins of Israel, has yoked himself to the same Islamist terrorist ideology. He and his close associates are not only trying to sidestep negotiations to which both sides committed themselves in the 1995 Oslo II Accords, but they daily keep whipping up violence. He also clearly seems to be to be hoping that European countries and the United Nations will recognize Palestine as a state even before it promises to end the daily violence, which now will be funded even more lavishly, thanks to the new Palestinian rapprochement with the major funders of terror, Qatar and Iran.

    PA President Mahmoud Abbas (r) meets with the Hamas political bureau chief Khaled Mashaal in Qatar, July 20, 2014. (Image source: Handout from the Palestinian Authority President's Office/Thaer Ghanem)

    It is clear that Abbas, despite constant tensions, instead of siding with Muslims who genuinely believe in peace, and who condemn terrorist organizations such as Hamas and ISIS, actually sides with Hamas. Hamas is his partner in the "Unity Government" between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas. Both Palestinian governments commit war crimes and distort the true meaning of Islam.

    Furthermore, the Palestinian Authority, Fatah and Hamas continue to promote violence. The government-controlled PA TV calls for attacking Israelis, and daily honors terrorists and calls forfunds to be given to their families.

    Much of these funds are supplied by the European Union, with no transparency or accountability despite years of efforts to have the amounts of this funding made public, as is required by law in the EU's own mandate. Therefore, we have no choice but sadly to conclude that the EU is just as cynical and corrupt as the sclerotic dictatorship to which it is trying to consign us.

    Mahmoud Abbas and his associates in the Fatah Central Committee have been continually escalating their anti-Israeli rhetoric -- the result of his surrender to the might of Hamas in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Instead of trying to beat Hamas, which is clearly beyond his capabilities, he has joined Hamas -- the coward's way out ever since Hamas threw him out of the Gaza Strip in disgrace in 2007, when he barely escaped with his life.
    Hamas has continued to try to kill Abbas, as he found out to his shock last summer. But apparently, Abbas keeps on hoping. As the proverb says: a Muslim doesn't let himself get bitten by the same snake twice.

    Hamas follows the Muslim Brotherhood's murderous ideology, which seeks only to impose itself on the entire world, in direct contravention of the Qur'an, which states that people are not to be converted to Islam by compulsion (Qur'an 2:256). Even Jordan's King Abdullah II, in the United Nation on September 24, 2014, said that there was a civil war in the Islamic world between the terrorist extremists and genuine Muslims.

    If European leaders really cared about us, instead of sending money to us to help rid them of the Jews, they would help us find a better leadership -- a leadership that would care about the daily lives and well-being of its people instead of just taking more and more free money from Europe. It is now a big business for the Palestinian leaders, and comes with no conditions; why should they stop? Even now, after the crushing defeat of Hamas, no one in Europe has even suggested that Hamas should be disarmed and the Gaza Strip demilitarized as a condition before funding its rebuilding.

    Do European leaders honestly think we will have better lives in a "Palestinian State"? At least now we do not have Hamas occupying more land and exchanging the abuses we suffer now for religious fanatics' abuses that would be even worse.

    If we are going to be honest with ourselves, as we here can see here every day on the ground, Israel has never called for the destruction of the Palestinians; and research strongly suggests that they have never tried to "destroy the Palestinians" or any other ethnic group -- not Christians, Muslims, Kurds, Yazidis or Copts.

    Israel has never said or done anything that indicated any plan to destroy the Palestinian people. On the contrary, Israel, while protecting itself, has done its utmost not to harm Palestinian civilians, even though it could inflict untold damage if it wished. We laugh about how fortunate we are to have Israel as our "enemy;" that everyone should have an enemy like that. Can you imagine what a massacre of the Jews -- and Christians and others -- would be like if Iran or ISIS had the weapons Israel has?

    On the contrary, it is we, the Palestinians, who for decades have been calling for the destruction of the "Zionist entity" and for driving the Jews into the sea. Some of us still act to achieve that aim.

    The current leadership here, of course, has, as usual, been seeking to turn these feelings of rising anger and frustration against Israel. But increasingly the people here see through that and keep talking about the literally hundreds of millions of euros a year the Europeans are giving to the leadership and politicized so-called "human rights charities" to keep it that way.

    Here, people are now saying that the real problem is not Israel and, certainly -- laughably -- not the lack of a peace accord, as much as the Americans, like Neville Chamberlain 1938, might like to have one to wave at gullible viewers.

    Israel is tough, yes, but has largely been fair -- more than one can say for other countries in the region. Israel, so long as it is not provoked, has been a remarkably decent neighbor. Not everything is perfect by far -- there are problems and have been unspeakably savage revenge attacks by a few Israelis here and there. But those have always been exceptions, and have always been severely condemned and punished by the Israelis, not celebrated and glorified, as with the Palestinian leadership.

    It is to this Palestinian leadership whom these European leaders would like to abandon us: a government that not one of them would want to live under for a day.

    ISIS operatives are already in the Sinai Peninsula, planning how to take over Egypt, and with their eyes set on Libya.

    Is this really what the Europeans want?

    Bassam Tawil is a scholar based in the Middle East.

    [1] H.H. Ben-Sasson, A History of the Jewish People, Harvard University Press, 1976, page 246. "When Archelaus was deposed from the ethnarchy in 6 CE, Judea proper, Samaria and Idumea were converted into a Roman province under the name Iudaea."
    [2] Terror Tunnels: The Case for Hamas's Just War against Hamas by Alan M. Dershowitz. Rosetta Books, 2014.
    [3] Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (saas) as saying " The last hour would not come unless the Muslims fight the Jews. The Jews. The Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say, 'Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.'" AbdallaSahih Muslim, Kitab al-Fitan wa Ashrat as-Sa'ah, Book 41, 6985.
    “Real peace cannot ever happen while the world allows itself to be taken hostage by lies.” — Elder of Ziyon

  17. #1597
    Senior Member Nabeel's Avatar
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Israelis really have learned from Goebells, Next Solomon will tell us that the Palestinians real friend is Israel

  18. #1598
    Elite Member sparkling's Avatar
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon2 View Post

    The Palestinians' Real Enemy: Europe

    by Bassam Tawil • December 28, 2014 at 5:00 am
    To prevent this Palestinian State that Europeans seem determined to push down our throats, many people are discussing a "Palestinian Spring" revolution. They simply do not know what else to do to protect ourselves from these "Goodists" of Europe.
    Do they honestly think we will have better lives in a "Palestinian State"?What we talk about is how the Europeans and their diplomats are paying our leaders to kill the Jews for them -- with their money but with our lives -- so that they can finish the job without getting their hands dirty and still keep on feeling good about themselves.ISIS operatives are already in Egypt, ready to take over the Sinai Peninsula, and with their eyes set on Libya. Is this what the Europeans really want?

    Listening, in both English and Arabic, to the latest speeches of Palestinian Authority [PA] President Mahmoud Abbas and his fellow Fatah Central Committee members, we get the uncomfortable feeling that the Palestinian State, now being promoted in Europe, will not only be a threat to the stability of the entire region, but to us who have to keep living here, as well to those countries in Europe who promote it.

    As Palestinians discuss among themselves -- far from the diplomats in their five-star hotels -- rather than accept this "gift" that Europe seems determined to push down our throats, many people increasingly see no choice but to launch a "Palestinian Spring" revolution. It would not be, as you might think, to rid them of Israel but finally to rid us of our wretched leadership and corrupt system of government -- and to stop the European counties that are imposing this brutal system on us by financing it.

    We have been fortunate enough to see from Israel how a democracy works. So although a Palestinian Spring revolution might cause chaos in the region and elsewhere for a while, its chances of success are far more assured than in the other places in the Middle East, where it has been tried but has not always succeeded.
    We do not want to do this, of course, but if we are forced by Europe to have this corrupt dictatorship called Palestine, terrorist groups such as Hamas, Al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and ISIS will flood the West Bank in less than week, and our lives will be even worse than what we have now. We simply do not know what else to do to defend ourselves from these "Goodists" of Europe.

    The Palestinian leadership, which represses people rather than confers with them, would of course deny all this to the European diplomats. The Palestinian leaders just want to keep the funds coming and keep their jobs. And of course, the European diplomats do not talk to us, the man on the street, the frustrated rest of us. They only talk to each other, their "counterparts," as they call them, in their air-conditioned meeting rooms and hotels.
    What we talk about is how the Europeans and their diplomats are paying our leaders to kill the Jews for them -- with their money but with our lives -- so that they can finish the job without getting their hands dirty and still keep on feeling good about themselves.

    And they evidently think that we cannot see through this plan. And to thank us they will to trap us under another corrupt Arab dictatorship?

    It is not the fault of the Israelis. In a weird way, the Israelis are just the other victims whom the Europeans -- in collusion with our leaders -- are manipulating us to hate. The Europeans pay our leaders to shape how we think. It is a brainwashing that never lets up.

    The Europeans put their own people on trial for "hate speech" when they have said nothing but the truth; and yet they pour millions into non-stop propaganda and bloodthirsty hate-speech on our government-controlled TV -- the only kind we have here. They fund any baseless sewage our leaders can think up.

    The usual claim is "occupation," but the Israelis are only "occupying" the West Bank because we -- in the form of Jordan -- occupied land promised to them, and then repeatedly attacked them.

    A more recent claim is "settlements," but the Palestine Liberation Organization [PLO] was formed in 1964, before there were any "settlements," so what exactly was it planning to "liberate"? If you look at any Palestinian map to this day, it encompasses the entire country of Israel. To the Palestinian Authority and many Arabs and Muslims, all of Israel is one big "settlement." Last week, Fatah Central Committee member Tawfiq Tirawi said, "Haifa, Jaffa, Acre and Nazareth are Palestinian, despite the Americans and the Israelis." Next week it will be some other pretext.

    What is becoming more and more clear is that just about everything going wrong here can be laid at the feet of Europe, at the feet of the leaders there who fund and cheer on the corruption and lawlessness which they would not tolerate in their own countries for a minute, but which they expect us to.

    Palestine is here, exactly where it always was. It has been lived in for 4000 years, by Arabs, Christians, Jews and anyone else who showed up. The Roman Emperor Hadrian called it Iudaea. Later, in 135 CE, the Romans renamed it Syria Palaestina in an attempt to sever all connection to it by the Jews.[1] It was part of the Ottoman Empire until its dissolution in 1918, then called Palestine again under the British Mandate. After Israel's war of Independence in 1948, it was and still is called Israel.

    There never has been a Palestinian state. Ever. The West Bank was Jordanian, the Golan Heights were Syrian and the Gaza Strip was Egyptian.

    The truth is that PA President Mahmoud Abbas has been trying to turn the State of Israel into the State of Palestine. He has been trying to create confusion in Europe and at the UN -- evidently, unfortunately, with some success. He has been falsely accusing Israel of committing "genocide" in the Gaza Strip. Regardless of the fabricated numbers issued by Hamas, more than half of the 2,000 Gazans killed over the summer were Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terrorist operatives, not "innocent civilians." It was Hamas that ordered its own people onto the roofs of apartment buildings in Gaza while Gazans were firing rockets, mortars and missiles into Israel. It was Hamas that used its own people as human shields to prevent Israel from being able to defend itself, or, when it did, so there would be more Palestinian "dead babies" to show to the intimidated television crews, to make Israelis look villainous.[2]

    It is Hamas that expresses in both its charter and daily statements the intention of committing genocide on the Jews -- not the Israelis, the Jews.

    Article 7 of the Hamas charter openly calls for the genocide of the Jews, an act "legitimized" by Islam, as part of the religious legacy of Muhammad's oral tradition (the hadiths).[3]

    Abbas has also been calling for a "peaceful popular resistance" against the Israelis, by "using all available means" within "international law" -- courtesy of Europe. "The Palestinian resistance," evokes brave Frenchmen daring to attack Nazis, not Palestinian terrorists driving cars into people, emerging from tunnels to kill and kidnap kindergarteners, or slaughtering old men while they are praying.

    The truth is that Mahmoud Abbas' appeals to world leaders are to help him circumvent the Israeli government, peace negotiations and legally binding peace agreements, all in order to achieve a Palestinian state unilaterally -- without having to recognize Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people and without reaching a final status agreement with it.

    If I were Israeli, I would understand that when Mahmoud Abbas says he wants a safe passage between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, as well as full control of air and sea lanes, he means he wants to receive arms from Iran without interference.

    So, are we actually accusing the Jews of "genocide" while it is we who are striving kill all of them and drive them "into the sea"? Are the Europeans actually buying this nonsense? We all ask ourselves: If Europeans like to feel so righteous about themselves, then why are they acting as the accomplices and accessories to criminals? Does that not make them criminals, too?

    It is Abbas, who, instead of distancing himself from Hamas's ISIS-like dreams of establishing an Islamic Emirate on the ruins of Israel, has yoked himself to the same Islamist terrorist ideology. He and his close associates are not only trying to sidestep negotiations to which both sides committed themselves in the 1995 Oslo II Accords, but they daily keep whipping up violence. He also clearly seems to be to be hoping that European countries and the United Nations will recognize Palestine as a state even before it promises to end the daily violence, which now will be funded even more lavishly, thanks to the new Palestinian rapprochement with the major funders of terror, Qatar and Iran.

    PA President Mahmoud Abbas (r) meets with the Hamas political bureau chief Khaled Mashaal in Qatar, July 20, 2014. (Image source: Handout from the Palestinian Authority President's Office/Thaer Ghanem)

    It is clear that Abbas, despite constant tensions, instead of siding with Muslims who genuinely believe in peace, and who condemn terrorist organizations such as Hamas and ISIS, actually sides with Hamas. Hamas is his partner in the "Unity Government" between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas. Both Palestinian governments commit war crimes and distort the true meaning of Islam.

    Furthermore, the Palestinian Authority, Fatah and Hamas continue to promote violence. The government-controlled PA TV calls for attacking Israelis, and daily honors terrorists and calls forfunds to be given to their families.

    Much of these funds are supplied by the European Union, with no transparency or accountability despite years of efforts to have the amounts of this funding made public, as is required by law in the EU's own mandate. Therefore, we have no choice but sadly to conclude that the EU is just as cynical and corrupt as the sclerotic dictatorship to which it is trying to consign us.

    Mahmoud Abbas and his associates in the Fatah Central Committee have been continually escalating their anti-Israeli rhetoric -- the result of his surrender to the might of Hamas in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Instead of trying to beat Hamas, which is clearly beyond his capabilities, he has joined Hamas -- the coward's way out ever since Hamas threw him out of the Gaza Strip in disgrace in 2007, when he barely escaped with his life.
    Hamas has continued to try to kill Abbas, as he found out to his shock last summer. But apparently, Abbas keeps on hoping. As the proverb says: a Muslim doesn't let himself get bitten by the same snake twice.

    Hamas follows the Muslim Brotherhood's murderous ideology, which seeks only to impose itself on the entire world, in direct contravention of the Qur'an, which states that people are not to be converted to Islam by compulsion (Qur'an 2:256). Even Jordan's King Abdullah II, in the United Nation on September 24, 2014, said that there was a civil war in the Islamic world between the terrorist extremists and genuine Muslims.

    If European leaders really cared about us, instead of sending money to us to help rid them of the Jews, they would help us find a better leadership -- a leadership that would care about the daily lives and well-being of its people instead of just taking more and more free money from Europe. It is now a big business for the Palestinian leaders, and comes with no conditions; why should they stop? Even now, after the crushing defeat of Hamas, no one in Europe has even suggested that Hamas should be disarmed and the Gaza Strip demilitarized as a condition before funding its rebuilding.

    Do European leaders honestly think we will have better lives in a "Palestinian State"? At least now we do not have Hamas occupying more land and exchanging the abuses we suffer now for religious fanatics' abuses that would be even worse.

    If we are going to be honest with ourselves, as we here can see here every day on the ground, Israel has never called for the destruction of the Palestinians; and research strongly suggests that they have never tried to "destroy the Palestinians" or any other ethnic group -- not Christians, Muslims, Kurds, Yazidis or Copts.

    Israel has never said or done anything that indicated any plan to destroy the Palestinian people. On the contrary, Israel, while protecting itself, has done its utmost not to harm Palestinian civilians, even though it could inflict untold damage if it wished. We laugh about how fortunate we are to have Israel as our "enemy;" that everyone should have an enemy like that. Can you imagine what a massacre of the Jews -- and Christians and others -- would be like if Iran or ISIS had the weapons Israel has?

    On the contrary, it is we, the Palestinians, who for decades have been calling for the destruction of the "Zionist entity" and for driving the Jews into the sea. Some of us still act to achieve that aim.

    The current leadership here, of course, has, as usual, been seeking to turn these feelings of rising anger and frustration against Israel. But increasingly the people here see through that and keep talking about the literally hundreds of millions of euros a year the Europeans are giving to the leadership and politicized so-called "human rights charities" to keep it that way.

    Here, people are now saying that the real problem is not Israel and, certainly -- laughably -- not the lack of a peace accord, as much as the Americans, like Neville Chamberlain 1938, might like to have one to wave at gullible viewers.

    Israel is tough, yes, but has largely been fair -- more than one can say for other countries in the region. Israel, so long as it is not provoked, has been a remarkably decent neighbor. Not everything is perfect by far -- there are problems and have been unspeakably savage revenge attacks by a few Israelis here and there. But those have always been exceptions, and have always been severely condemned and punished by the Israelis, not celebrated and glorified, as with the Palestinian leadership.

    It is to this Palestinian leadership whom these European leaders would like to abandon us: a government that not one of them would want to live under for a day.

    ISIS operatives are already in the Sinai Peninsula, planning how to take over Egypt, and with their eyes set on Libya.

    Is this really what the Europeans want?

    Bassam Tawil is a scholar based in the Middle East.

    [1] H.H. Ben-Sasson, A History of the Jewish People, Harvard University Press, 1976, page 246. "When Archelaus was deposed from the ethnarchy in 6 CE, Judea proper, Samaria and Idumea were converted into a Roman province under the name Iudaea."
    [2] Terror Tunnels: The Case for Hamas's Just War against Hamas by Alan M. Dershowitz. Rosetta Books, 2014.
    [3] Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (saas) as saying " The last hour would not come unless the Muslims fight the Jews. The Jews. The Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say, 'Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.'" AbdallaSahih Muslim, Kitab al-Fitan wa Ashrat as-Sa'ah, Book 41, 6985.
    Do you think Europe is the friend of Israel? After WW2 instead of giving your people a chunk of Germany they shytted on you and dumped you in the middle of todays nightmare so your people could get a good shafting again. Have you forgotten they wanted to remove your smell from Europe and now you sweep it under the carpet?

  19. #1599
    Senior Member Solomon2's Avatar
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    THE BLOGS > RICHARD MILLETT
    This post has been contributed by a third party. The opinions, facts and any media content here are presented solely by the author, and The Times of Israel assumes no responsibility for them.

    And I only asked why Jews can’t live next to Palestinians on the West Bank….

    RICHARD MILLETT December 31, 2014, 8:48 pm


    Richard Millett Blogger who writes about Israel and anti-Semitism. Has a Masters in Near and Middle Eastern Studies from the School of
    Oriental and African Studies, London. Supports Leeds United and Yorkshire Cricket Club. A Londoner.

    MORE IN THIS BLOG





    GUPS representative, Martin Linton, Dibyesh Anand, Sarah Apps, Murad Qureshi

    And so to my final blog of 2014 and a public event I attended last month at the University of Westminster, London.


    On 13th November 2014 a panel discussed Parliament Recognises Palestine: What Next?
    The panel consisted of Sara Apps, Campaigns Officer for the Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Martin “tentacles” Linton, chair of Labour Friends of Palestine, Murad Qureshi, a Labour Party Member of the London Mayoral Assembly and, finally, a representative from the General Union of Palestinian Students (GUPS – UK).

    The panel was chaired by Dr. Dibyesh Anand, Head of Department of Politics and International Relations at the University of Westminster.

    As ever there were repeated calls from the panel for a boycott of Israeli “settlements”. When it came to the Q&A I raised my arm and asked one simple question:

    “Isn’t it racist to call for the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the West Bank especially when considering that 1.7 million Muslim and Christian Arabs reside fairly happily in Israel ?”

    Chaos ensued.

    I was then referred to as “the enemy” by a man who walked out while giving me a rather unpleasant look. He also said, referring to me, “We are fighting these people”. Here’s the clip:



    The head of Fatah in the UK then described how the Palestinians had welcomed the Jews from Nazi Germany and protected the Jewish community in Beirut during Lebanon’s civil war.

    The most frightening aspect of his speech was not the lies but the applause. Here’s the clip:



    Martin Linton then accused me of dangerously introducing “Jewish” into the discussion. But he then praised the anti-Israel group Jewish Voices for Peace (JVP).

    Sarah Apps said she abhored anti-Semitism. However, her organisation’s logo dispenses with Israel altogether. So, if implicitly calling for the eradication of the Jewish state isn’t anti-Semitism then, one must ask, what is?

    Finally, Anand Dibyesh said this event wasn’t at all anti-Semitic (I never claimed it was) before immediately, himself, going on to make a link between Nazism and Israel.

    Finally, a student asked what she could do to help. Martin Linton responded that she should support Karen Buck, the Labour MP for Westminster North, who, he said, is very pro-Palestinian. It seems for some the needs of the Palestinians are more important than the needs of the good people of Westminster North.

    On the way out I was encircled by some aggressive students who told me I was brainwashed and who asked repeatedly how much I was being paid.

    So here’s to a less hypocritical and more constructive 2015 although with the May general election on the horizon many British politicians will be using the Palestinians as mere political fodder with which to try to secure their own re-election.

    Thank you for all the supportive comments I have had throughout 2014. Thank you to those who have commented on my blog and those who have cross-posted me and many thanks for the support of the team at CIFWatch.
    More importantly a huge “thank you” to those who continue to fight against anti-Semitism and Israel’s delegitimisation in the UK but who receive little, if any, credit in return.

    A healthy and happy New Year to everyone.
    “Real peace cannot ever happen while the world allows itself to be taken hostage by lies.” — Elder of Ziyon

  20. #1600
    Senior Member Nabeel's Avatar
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    Re: Israeli Palestininian conflict

    Well there is your answer treat them as human and you will have peace

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