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Thread: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

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    WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    Chinese Attack Helicopter WZ-10 Launches First Air-To-Air Missile




    China’s first self-developed modern military attack helicopter WZ-10 has launched its first air-to-air missile and successfully intercepted low-altitude targets.

    The WZ-10, meaning “armed helicopter”, carried out the launch during a live-fire drill involving army aviation troops of the People’s Liberation Army in the eastern waters off south China’s Guangdong Province last week.

    The drill, which was also the largest-scale activity held to study combat methods since the building up of the aviation troops, conducted six operations, covering fire, close fire support, special assaults, airlanding at the wing side, fire interception and move by leapfrogging.

    The WZ-10 is designed primarily for anti-tank missions and was first seen in public at the 9th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in the southern city of Zhuhai in Guangdong in 2012.

    http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/...o-air-missile/


















    Pakistan should purchase this damn helicopter!
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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates







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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates



    China Goes All In With The Z-10

    January 6, 2013: China’s new Z-10 helicopter gunship is apparently in mass production. In the last year the Z-10 has been photographed serving with four of the five aviation brigades in the army. There is a squadron (12 helicopters) of Z-10s in each brigade. The move to mass production of the Z-10 was a surprise because this aircraft has been in development for over 14 years and the several prototypes encountered numerous problems. This led to failed attempts to buy or steal helicopter gunship technology from Russia and South Africa.

    Two years ago some of the Z-10 prototypes were sent to Chinese Army aviation units for field testing. While not a failure, the newer and lighter Z-19 was apparently seen as a better candidate for mass production. Work continued on the Z-10 because the Z-19 is basically an armed scout helicopter. China always wanted something more like the American AH-64 Apache. That would be the Z-10, at least once all the development problems were overcome. The seven ton Z-10 is smaller than the 10 ton AH-64 and also has a crew of two. The Z-10 is armed with 30mm autocannon and can carry up to a ton of rockets or missiles.

    For three years now the Z-19 armed scout helicopter has been spotted in the air, most recently painted in military colors. The Z-19 was earlier known as the Z-9W. The Z-19 is yet another Chinese helicopter based on the Eurocopter Dauphin (which has been built under license in China for two decades). The Z-19 is a 4.5 ton, two seat armed helicopter. It can carry a 23mm autocannon and up to half a ton of munitions (missiles, usually). Cruising speed is 245 kilometers an hour and range is 700 kilometers. The Z-19 is basically an upgraded Z-9W.

    http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hta.../20130106.aspx
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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    This helicopter and this partner instead of the Turkish/Italian/English helicopter, should be Pakistan's choice --

    Excellent thread Raptor
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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    We would probably get tot with this and possibly build them ourselves
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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    [MENTION=13]RaptorRX707[/MENTION]

    buddy any pics of the HMS ???

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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by RAMPAGE View Post
    @<i><b><u><a href="http://www.pakistanaffairs.pk/member.php?u=13" target="_blank">RaptorRX707</a></u></b></i>

    buddy any pics of the HMS ???
    Oh I forgot HMS, let me add them.




    0:40, 2:22, 3:53


    0:33









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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    Image of the Z-10 attack helicopter carrying full load of 8x HJ-10 anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM), Two Ty-90 AAMs and Two rocket pods.

    Source

    Specifications WZ-10 (estimated)

    General characteristics

    * Crew: 2
    * Length: 14.15 m (ft)
    * Rotor diameter: 13.0 m [4] (ft)
    * Height: 3.85 m (ft)
    * Disc area: m² (ft²)
    * Empty weight: 5540 kg [4] (lb)
    * Loaded weight: kg (lb)
    * Useful load: 1500 kg [4] (lb)
    * Max takeoff weight: 7000 kg (lb)
    * Powerplant: 2× WZ-9 turboshafts [4], 957 kw (1285 hp) each

    Performance

    * Maximum speed: 300+ km/h [4]
    * Cruise speed: 270+ km/h [4]
    * Ferry range: 800+ km [4] ()
    * Service ceiling: 6400 m (ft)
    * Rate of climb: over 11+ m/s [4] (ft/min)
    * Disc loading: kg/m² (lb/ft²)

    * Maximum acceleration: +3 g (29 m/s²)

    Armament

    * Guns: 23 mm or 30 mm autocannon mounted on chin turret
    * Hardpoints: 4
    * Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm multi-barrel unguided rocket pods
    * Air-to-surface missiles: Up to 8 ATGM
    * Air-to-air missiles:
    o Up to 8 TY-90
    o Up to 4 PL-5, PL-7, PL-9

    Avionics

    * YH millimetre-wave fire-control radar
    * YH-96 electronic warfare suite


    AH-1W SuperCobra


    General characteristics

    * Crew: 2: pilot, CPG (co-pilot/gunner)
    * Length: 44 ft 7 in (13.6 m)
    * Rotor diameter: 48 ft (14.6 m)
    * Height: 13 ft 5 in (4.1 m)
    * Disc area: 530.83 ft² (168.1 m²)
    * Empty weight: 10,920 lb (4,953 kg)
    * Max takeoff weight: 14,750 lb (6,690 kg)
    * Powerplant: 2× General Electric T700 turboshaft, 1,680 shp (1,300 kW) each
    * Rotor systems: 2 blades on main rotor, 2 blades on tail rotor

    Performance


    * Maximum speed: 190 knots (218 mph, 352 km/h)
    * Range: 317 nmi (365 mi, 587 km)
    * Service ceiling: 12,200 ft (3,720 m)
    * Rate of climb: 1,620 ft/min (8.2 m/s)

    Eurocopter Tiger


    HISTORY:
    First Flight (PT-1) 29 April 1991
    (Tigre HAP) March 2003
    (Tiger ARH) February 2004
    Service Entry

    (Tigre HAP) 2005 (?)
    (Tiger ARH) 2007


    CREW: two: pilot, gunner


    ESTIMATED COST:

    (Tiger UHT) $40 million [2002$]
    (Tigre HAP) $37 million [2002$]
    (Tigre HAD) $46 million [2002$]
    (Tiger ARH) $36 million [2002$]


    AIRFOIL SECTIONS:
    Rotor Blade Root unknown
    Rotor Blade Tip

    unknown


    DIMENSIONS:
    Length 51.79 ft (15.80 m) with rotors turning
    (UHT) 46.17 ft (14.08 m) ignoring rotors
    (HAP) 49.21 ft (15.00 m) ignoring rotors
    Rotor Diameter 42.65 ft (13.00 m)
    Wingspan 14.83 ft (4.52 m)
    Height 12.5 ft (3.81 m) to top of rotor head
    14.17 ft (4.32 m) to top of tail rotor
    17.06 ft (5.20 m) to top of mast-mounted sight
    Rotor Disk Area

    1,428.4 ft2 (132.73 m2)


    WEIGHTS:
    Empty 7,275 lb (3,300 kg)
    Typical Load 12,785 lb (5,800 kg)
    Max Takeoff 13,230 lb (6,000 kg)
    Fuel Capacity internal: 2,380 lb (1,080 kg)
    external: 1,090 lb (495 kg)
    Max Payload

    (HAP) 3,970 lb (1,800 kg)
    (UHT) 3,635 lb (1,650 kg)


    PROPULSION:
    Powerplant two MTU/ Turbomeca/ Rolls-Royce MTR 390 turboshafts
    Thrust 2,570 shp (1,916 kW)


    PERFORMANCE:
    Max Level Speed at altitude : 200 mph (320 km/h) [clean]
    175 mph (280 km/h) [armed]
    at sea level: unknown
    cruise speed: 145 mph (230 km/h)
    Maximum Climb Rate (UHT) 2,105 ft (640 m) / min
    (HAP) 2,265 ft (690 m) / min
    Service Ceiling 13,125 ft (4,000 m)
    Hover Ceiling
    (out of ground effect) 11,480 ft (3,500 m)
    Range typical: 430 nm (800 km)
    ferry: 700 nm (1,300 km)
    Endurance 3 hr 25 min
    g-Limits unknown


    ARMAMENT:

    Gun (HAP/HAD/ARH) one GIAT AM-30781 30-mm cannon (150-450 rds)
    Stations 2 stub-wings with 4 hardpoints
    Air-to-Air Missile up to four Matra Mistral or Stinger
    Air-to-Surface Missile up to eight Trigat, HOT-2, HOT-3, or TOW-2 anti-tank
    Bomb none
    Other up to two 68-mm or 70-mm rocket pods, 12.7-mm gun pod, 20-mm gun pod
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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Wajid47 View Post
    We would probably get tot with this and possibly build them ourselves
    why demand TOT on everything we see? isnt this a scavenger behavior? wait for someone to do all the hard work and when its time for him to reap the reward then go there with some cash and demand equal partnership?

    I say lets stay with the JF-17 for now, we got its TOT and build over it and not stretch ourselves more than we have the capacity.
    this helicopter shows some promise and is in the same league as its J-10 brother in terms of tech and Chinese innovation and effort.

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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    This helicopter and this partner instead of the Turkish/Italian/English helicopter, should be Pakistan's choice --

    Excellent thread Raptor
    I am interested to know if it can withstand whatever taliban got to throw at it. 12.7 mm AP round is the minimum requirement but I will really like to see if it can survive a glancing shot or near explosion of an RPG.
    Taliban use RGP against the gunships in the mountains to a devastating effect majority of the helicopters downed are from RGP fire.
    NATO and Pakistani helicopters included.

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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Irfan Baloch View Post
    I am interested to know if it can withstand whatever taliban got to throw at it. 12.7 mm AP round is the minimum requirement but I will really like to see if it can survive a glancing shot or near explosion of an RPG.
    Taliban use RGP against the gunships in the mountains to a devastating effect majority of the helicopters downed are from RGP fire.
    NATO and Pakistani helicopters included.

    Can the Agusta withstand RPG? What is the Max effective range of an RPG? Officially I think it's about 1000ft, is that right? Anyway, they are used as a ambush weapon, however, any helicopter has to be used within it's limits allowing it's operators a measure of safety.

    USe of RPG against a maneuvering aircraft is a very desperate tactic
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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    [MENTION=1244]Muse[/MENTION] [MENTION=784]Irfan Baloch[/MENTION] WZ-10 Is not a heavily armoured brawler like Apache or Mi-28.
    It is more like a fencer!
    It is one of those attack helos which are designed to fight against other hi-tech armies NOT insurgents

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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha1 View Post
    [MENTION=1244]Muse[/MENTION] [MENTION=784]Irfan Baloch[/MENTION] WZ-10 Is not a heavily armoured brawler like Apache or Mi-28.
    It is more like a fencer!
    It is one of those attack helos which are designed to fight against other hi-tech armies NOT insurgents
    Can an armed brawler like the Apache take a hit from RPG and not suffer?? -- Any aircraft brought into the range of arms, even small arms, will suffer/

    The point here , should be whether Pakistan should go for systems that it can build on and more importantly form Trusting alliances - such alliances are an impossibility with the West and their Allies, be they Turks or Arabs
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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    Can the Agusta withstand RPG? What is the Max effective range of an RPG? Officially I think it's about 1000ft, is that right? Anyway, they are used as a ambush weapon, however, any helicopter has to be used within it's limits allowing it's operators a measure of safety.

    USe of RPG against a maneuvering aircraft is a very desperate tactic
    you got the range right, agreed RPG is an ambush weapon in favours the hilly terrain where the helicopters might be in the level fight with the hill tops.

    withstanding an RPG is out of question. that weapon is used to defeat the armour of the tanks. out of the 60% helicopters downed in Iraq and Afghanistan, 40% were from RGP and 20% from heavy machine guns. rest were by AAA and MANPADs

    Boeing is lying about the survivability of its Apaches, the best we can expect is withstanding 12.7 MM rounds but sustained fire at the rotter can send the helicopter in a spin and crash it... job done. Boeing claims that it can withstand 23mm rounds of AAA guns but the same shika guns broght them down due to sheer amount of lead they threw at them.

    the best bet against the RGP is constant movement and evasive maneuver the incoming projectile the moment the pilot sees the smoke plume. there are new countermeasures in production like Acoustic sound locators that will warn the pilot in advance as soon as the grenade will make a woooshing sound exiting the tube.
    the simple idea is to keep moving, dont tease the target, dont admire the view, detect fire and go.

    helicopter by design is so much vulnerable that it cant be helped. the base of the rotter specially the tail one malfunctioning can get it out of control ad crash it without even puncturing the armor.

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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    Can an armed brawler like the Apache take a hit from RPG and not suffer?? -- Any aircraft brought into the range of arms, even small arms, will suffer/
    Both the AH-64 Apache and Mil Mi-28 Havoc are heavily
    armored these two Attack Helicopters are not indestructible.
    Both can most likely take an (1) ONE
    RPG hit and still fly all depending on where the round hits. As for an Anti Air Missile neither would survive and both would be
    destroyed. Both of them can take small round fire like 5.56, 7.62 and 12.5mm and still continue to fly.
    The point here , should be whether Pakistan should go for systems that it can build on and more importantly form Trusting alliances - such alliances are an impossibility with the West and their Allies, be they Turks or Arabs
    I got your point

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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    Well according to some american sources the Apache's rotor blade can take some heavy fire because of it's design:
    Each blade consisted of four stainless steel sheet metal spars. The spars were bonded together to form the blades’ structure, each that runs the entire length of the helicopter blade. If the blade is hit or struck in any one of its four spars, the remaining spars would keep the blade's structure's integrety and the helicopter could still return to it's base.

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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha1 View Post
    Well according to some american sources the Apache's rotor blade can take some heavy fire because of it's design:
    Each blade consisted of four stainless steel sheet metal spars. The spars were bonded together to form the blades’ structure, each that runs the entire length of the helicopter blade. If the blade is hit or struck in any one of its four spars, the remaining spars would keep the blade's structure's integrety and the helicopter could still return to it's base.

    This is Boeing Marketing statement. in reality the Shilka's brought them down.
    and by the way any helicopter no matter how heavily armored has no chance against direct hit from RGP which is meant to penetrate much thicker tank armor. it might survive the shrapnel dispersed from an exploding RGP but again it depends on distance. in short the gunship helicopters are the toys of the armies that enjoy virtual air superiority.
    these helicopters cant survive against the MANPADs either.

    they were not used in Yugoslavia and sparingly used in Kosovo due to the presence of much better air defence than what Taliban have been able to bring about.

    Pakistan really doesnt need an expensive heavyweight helicopter because Cobras and anything IN the class of Z-10 (based on what we know) and T 129 is good enough. but like Muse said, from a reliable source that doesnt change its policies and bans the exports.



    on a very general level, gunship helicopters are like a fashionable accessory without much value in the early stages of a conflict against a regular army , armies risk loosing them against any adversary that has fighter jets, SAMs , MANPAD and AAA artillery.
    they would only be deployed once air defences have been sufficiently degraded or if there is a chance to sneak attack.

    for a country like Pakistan and its budget, any vintage or refurbished Hind can do much more for the buck specially in terms of WOT. it comes with a fraction of a cost, has the most armor than any other gunship and doubles as a transporter as well. provided if Ukrian or any other ex-Soviet country gets the clearance from Moscow to sell it to Pakistan.

    question one must ask is why do we need a gunship for?

    1. against the insurgencies
    2. against the invading Indian armor

    for that purpose we dont need Apache or Mi28 (will be good if we could get them but grapes are soar) anything that has recon and attack capability and comes with "sufficient" armor to sustain up to 12.7 mm fire is good enough.

    world is moving away from passive armor concept now. more speed and manoeuvrability and early warning will save the helicopter. that mast on the top of the apache rotter is a great idea, stay low pop up to pick targets fire and then duck and leave.
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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    PLA Island Attack Drill - 100 helicopters flanked by WZ-10 attack helicopters.



    Credit: JDUS2020

    [Note: Thanks to MilkofMal for the post.]
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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates

    This is the ship the PA should be all over -- and yet it does not appear to be, which is curious.
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    Re: WZ-10 Helicopter Discussions | Updates


    Airbus Helicopters signs $800mn deal with China

    AFP — Published Oct 30, 2015



    The helicopter is often deployed in emergency medical services. — AFP/File.

    PARIS: Airbus Helicopters has signed a letter of intent for the sale of 100 H135 helicopters to China and the construction of an assembly plant there, a source familiar with the deal said Friday.

    The $800 million deal for the versatile twin engine machines often deployed in emergency medical services came as German Chancellor Angela Merkel visits the Asian giant.

    European manufacturer Airbus Helicopters has a 40 per cent market share of a Chinese market which has identified 20-year demand of up to 5,000 copters.

    The deal came a day after an accord between Airbus and state-owned China Aviation Supplies Holding (CASH) Group for 100 A320 aircraft, worth $9.7 billion at list prices.

    They also confirmed 30 options for twin-aisle A330s, among a 75-plane deal announced in June ahead of a visit by Li to Airbus headquarters in the French city of Toulouse.

    Airbus — which has an assembly facility in the northern Chinese port of Tianjin — is engaged in a fierce struggle with the United States Boeing for dominance in the crucial Chinese market.

    China is also developing its own fledgling aerospace industry even as it ramps up deals with foreign manufacturers.

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