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Thread: China's J-31/F-60 Shenyang stealth fighter

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  1. #21
    Professionals Martin's Avatar
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    Shenyang J-31 stealth fighter design is vastly different from F-35

    Shenyang J-31 stealth fighter

    The Shenyang J-31 stealth fighter is clearly not based on the F-35.

    Firstly, the F-35 is a single-engine fighter. The J-31 is a twin-engine fighter. Only clueless lay people think that you can substitute two engines for a single engine. Actually, it requires a complete redesign with a careful redistribution of the aircraft weight. Therefore, the Shenyang J-31 is an indigenous Chinese product.

    Secondly, the F-35 has ugly non-stealthy bumps all over its body. There's the cannon protrusion above the left airduct. The entire underside of the F-35 is bulging and lacks the clean stealthy smoothness of the J-31.

    Thirdly, the F-35 has rhomboid vertical stabilizers. The Shenyang J-31 has large trapezoidal vertical stabilizers.

    Fourthly, the F-35 has a diamond-shaped wing. The Shenyang J-31 has a clipped delta-wing. The leading-edge sweep angle is clearly steeper on the J-31.

    Only clueless Russian neophytes would claim the Shenyang J-31 stealth fighter is based on a stolen F-35 design. Any informed person can see the vast differences between the J-31 and the F-35.
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  2. #22
    Administrator Aryan_B's Avatar
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    Why should this be a surprise? China produces more engineers than any other country therefore it is inevitable they will produce indigenous products of quality. It is only racists who think only white man can produce good products.
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  3. #23
    Junior Member Obambam's Avatar
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    Last edited by Obambam; 7th November 2012 at 05:16.

  4. #24
    Professionals Martin's Avatar
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    Comparison of 5th gen stealth fighters at different angles


    Top row: Shenyang J-31
    Second row: Chengdu J-20
    Third row: F-35
    Bottom row: F-22

    [Note: Thank you to Greyboy2 for the post.]

    ----------

    "Canadian Icehole": For completeness sake, the T-50 should have been added.

    My reaction:

    T-50 is not a very-low-observable (VLO) fighter. The lack of a S-duct and exposed metal engine pods rightfully disqualify the T-50 from the ranks of the Chengdu J-20, Shenyang J-31, F-22, and F-35.

    RCS

    Very Low Observable (VLO)
    F-22: 0.0001 m2 (GlobalSecurity: Radar Cross Section (RCS) - GlobalSecurity.org)
    J-31: 0.0001 m2 except for round engine nozzles
    J-20: 0.0001 m2 (front) to 0.005 m2 (rear) (Australia Air Power: Chengdu J-20: Peace in Our Time?)
    F-35: 0.005 m2 (GlobalSecurity: Radar Cross Section (RCS) - GlobalSecurity.org)

    Glorified 4th Gen+ fighter (You need a S-duct!)
    T-50: 0.5 m2 (Russian Embassy in India: India, Russia close to pact on next generation fighter)
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    Last edited by Martin; 7th November 2012 at 11:29.
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  5. #25
    Professionals Martin's Avatar
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    Shenyang J-31 will replace Nanchang Q-5 as China's one-megaton thermonuclear strike fighter


    The stealthy Shenyang J-31 will assume the role of one-megaton thermonuclear strike fighter from the retiring Nanchang Q-5.

    The Nanchang Q-5 (see citation below) is being phased out of the PLA Air Force. This raises the question of its replacement. The most likely candidate is the stealthy Shenyang J-31.

    Both planes are approximately 52 feet long and 32 feet wide. Since the Shenyang J-31 has almost 50% greater "wing area" (40 m2 vs. 28 m2) to provide additional lift, the J-31 has far greater payload capacity.

    The Q-5 can no longer accomplish its task as a one-megaton thermonuclear strike fighter in the modern era of AESA defense radars. This role will fall to its successor, the stealthy Shenyang J-31.

    ----------

    China's Q-5A attack aircraft dropped an one megaton thermonuclear warhead in 1972


    A Nanchang Q-5A attack aircraft dropped an one megaton KB-1 thermonuclear warhead in 1972.


    "This is a short video of the 12th Chinese nuclear weapons test. This was a test of the [one megaton] KB-1 thermonuclear warhead dropped from a Qiang-5 attack aircraft."
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    Last edited by Martin; 12th November 2012 at 01:43.
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  6. #26
    Member Irfan Baloch's Avatar
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    F-35 is being slated by former American pilots and aviation experts for its bulky size and specially small wings compared to its body. the partners and future prospect customers are having second thoughts about it. I took the above image to see the top view comparison of the two fighters, I am not sure if the both pictures are perfect in scale. if a perfect and identical scale top image can be acquired then we might be able to visually see how big wings does J-31 has than the JSF / F-35.

    although F-35 is touted to have the world's biggest single engine for a jet aircraft but still its one engine and compared to its body, there is not much kick to it. J-31's twin engines would pretty much negate that short coming due to more thrust it will have better turn than the F-35, which according to aviation experts is counting on its stealth at the expense of its turn rate and lack of agility.

    check out this video .. the entire program is very interesting and its not just one person and one program but many more that raise the questions about that very expensive program that might not even meet expectoration



    a natural question from the prospect customers/ operators of J-31 will be how well will it fare?


    another good read re J-31 flight
    New Stealth Fighter Hot Among Military Fans
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    Last edited by Irfan Baloch; 12th November 2012 at 11:48.

  7. #27
    Member Irfan Baloch's Avatar
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    in an on going ever growing discussion and web war over J-31 and Chinese capabilities I have come across an interesting and witty post by a Chinese poster.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	J-31.JPG 
Views:	168 
Size:	74.7 KB 
ID:	1994

  8. #28
    Member Irfan Baloch's Avatar
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    in an on going ever growing discussion and web war over J-31 and Chinese capabilities I have come across an interesting and witty post by a Chinese poster.


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	J-31.JPG 
Views:	168 
Size:	74.7 KB 
ID:	1994


    Just like the US F-22 and F-35 fifth-generation fighters, the J-20 and J-31 will complement each other during future operations," Bai Wei, former deputy editor of the Aviation World weekly, told the Global Times.


  9. #29
    Member Irfan Baloch's Avatar
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    on a much sombre note, this aircraft is a no no for Pakistan Airforce (sorry PAF fans) because it doesnt fit the one engine doctrine of the PAF. you can expect some recycled F-16s or J-10s as best and then expect our pilots to do wonders of the 5th Gen air crafts when faced by an air advisory. (I know the PAF logic sucks arse.. sorry to be curde)

  10. #30
    Professionals Martin's Avatar
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    Comparison of stealth fighter lengths


    [Courtesy of "Sdleio"]


    [Courtesy of "Sdleio"]

    [Note: Thank yo to Skipper for the post.]
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  11. #31
    Professionals Martin's Avatar
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    Shenyang J-31 stealth fighter actual flight video (12 seconds worth!)

    Shenyang J-31 stealth fighter is flown accompanied by a Shenyang J-11B spotter plane. Video starts at 2:03 and lasts through 2:15.

    Also, don't miss the fleet of WZ-10 attack helicopters at 0:23 in the video.

    At 1:35, the Chengdu J-20 heavy stealth fighter is directly overhead. It's an awe-inspiring sight on a large screen display.



    [Note: Thank you to Winto for the video link.]
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  12. #32
    Member Munir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irfan Baloch View Post
    on a much sombre note, this aircraft is a no no for Pakistan Airforce (sorry PAF fans) because it doesnt fit the one engine doctrine of the PAF. you can expect some recycled F-16s or J-10s as best and then expect our pilots to do wonders of the 5th Gen air crafts when faced by an air advisory. (I know the PAF logic sucks arse.. sorry to be curde)
    J6 two engines... A5 two engines...

    And even without that you are so wrong. I think that is enough of my contribution.
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  13. #33
    Professionals Martin's Avatar
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    China has been building delta-wing jet fighters for 50 years

    J-7 (first flight 1966) delta wing design -->
    J-8 (first flight 1969) enlarged delta wing design -->
    J-9 (first flight 1975) tailless canard-delta wing design (project canceled in 1980 due to inability to mass produce WS-6 turbofan engine) -->
    J-10 (first flight 1998) tailless canard-delta wing design -->
    J-20 (first flight 2011) stealthy tailless canard-delta wing design -->
    J-31 (first flight 2012) stealthy clipped-delta wing design

    Fifty years ago, China started with its first delta-wing design. All subsequent aircraft have been an evolution of the basic delta-wing design by adding a canard and then making it stealthy. It is clear that all of the Chinese fighters (e.g. J-7, J-8, J-9, J-10, J-20, and J-31) belong to the same delta-wing family.

    The J-31 is a modified design of China's basic delta-wing fighter. The J-31 uses a clipped-delta wing.

    In conclusion, China has been building delta-wing designs and their offshoots for fifty years.


    On the left is a Chinese J-7E with an unique double-delta wing design. On the right is the Chinese J-9 canard-delta wing prototype.

    ----------

    References:

    Chengdu J-7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Shenyang J-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Chengdu J-20 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Shenyang J-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Last edited by Martin; 7th January 2013 at 18:57.
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  14. #34
    Senior Member Felix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    China has been building delta-wing jet fighters for 50 years

    J-7 (first flight 1966) delta wing design -->
    J-8 (first flight 1969) enlarged delta wing design -->
    J-9 (first flight 1975) tailless canard-delta wing design (project canceled in 1980 due to inability to mass produce WS-6 turbofan engine) -->
    J-10 (first flight 1998) tailless canard-delta wing design -->
    J-20 (first flight 2011) stealthy tailless canard-delta wing design -->
    J-31 (first flight 2012) stealthy clipped-delta wing design

    Fifty years ago, China started with its first delta-wing design. All subsequent aircraft have been an evolution of the basic delta-wing design by adding a canard and then making it stealthy. It is clear that all of the Chinese fighters (e.g. J-7, J-8, J-9, J-10, J-20, and J-31) belong to the same delta-wing family.

    The J-31 is a modified design of China's basic delta-wing fighter. The J-31 uses a clipped-delta wing.

    In conclusion, China has been building delta-wing designs and their offshoots for fifty years.


    On the left is a Chinese J-7E with an unique double-delta wing design. On the right is the Chinese J-9 canard-delta wing prototype.

    ----------

    References:

    Chengdu J-7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Shenyang J-8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Chengdu J-9 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Chengdu J-20 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Shenyang J-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Thanks again Martin a great read.
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  15. #35
    Member Munir's Avatar
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    Not to disappoint others but those flaps on the mainwing are not the right size. They need a much bigger area with a delta configuration,

  16. #36
    Senior Member Neo's Avatar
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    Chinese J-9 tailless delta.

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  17. #37
    Administrator Aryan_B's Avatar
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    Re: China's J-31/F-60 Shenyang stealth fighter

    China Says J-31 Fighter Will Compete With F-35 for Sales
    By Zachary Keck

    September 27, 2013

    A PLA Navy official has confirmed to state-run media outlets that China will export the Shenyang J-31 twin-engine fifth generation fighter jet.

    According to the Taiwan-based Want China Times, Admiral Zhang Zhaozhong told the People’s Daily this week that the J-31 was never built with China’s military in mind, and it was highly unlikely that the PLA would ever operate J-31s off of its aircraft carriers. Instead, the J-31 was designed for export to China’s strategic partners and allies, particularly those that couldn’t purchase the F-35.

    The J-31, often referred to as the Falcon Hawk, Falcon Eagle, F-60 or J-21, is one of China’s two prototype fifth-generation aircraft, the other being the J-20. It is built by Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, and images of the aircraft first began appearing on the internet around this time last year.

    Photos of the J-31 allegedly conducting its first test run surfaced last November, followed by a one-quarter scale model of the stealth fighter being showcased the same month at the China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition, China’s largest airshow. It was identified only as the Advanced Fighter Concept at the show, although reports in China’s state-run media said that prototype was a J-31. More recently, last month, the Global Times posted a picture of a J-31 doing a test run on its online edition.

    Previous reports in China’s state-run media have been mixed as to whether the J-31 would serve as the PLA’s future carrier-based fighter, or whether it was intended for foreign customers. Sun Cong, the chief designer of both China’s current carrier-based aircraft, the J-15, as well as the J-31, told the People’s Daily earlier this year that future versions of the J-31 might become China next-generation carrier-borne fighter jet. However, representatives from the Aviation Industry Corporation of China, a state-owned aerospace company that displayed the prototype at the airshow last November, billed it at the time as intended for export.

    An article in the People’s Daily at the end of last month did little to clarify matters. The article referred to the J-31 as a fourth-generation stealth fighter, while also saying that is comparable to the U.S.’ F-35 fighter jets. The report first said that it would be exported abroad as a competitor to the F-35, before discussing the possibility that it will be China’s next carrier-borne fighter.

    “Experts predict that the J-31 will make rapid inroads in the international market in the future, and will undoubtedly steal the limelight from the F-35,” the People’s Daily report said, noting also that competition to sell the fighter jets to international customers was “becoming a new variable in the Sino-US strategic game.”

    The report added that, “The J-31, with its main target as the export market, represents a serious threat to U.S. arms manufacturers.” Later in the same article, however, People’s Daily noted that the plane’s landing gear was built to sustain the impact of landing on a carrier better than the current J-15s, and therefore might be used as China’s future carrier-based jet.

    One possibility is that China is building both a domestic and export version of the aircraft. Some foreign news outlets have indeed said that China may sell a version of the aircraft abroad under the name F-60, while maintaining a fleet of domestic J-31s for the PLA.

    With so little known about the J-31, it’s hard to gauge how credible China’s claims are that the J-31 is a low-cost alternative to the F-35. In a report in Defense News last August, shortly after the first few images of the plane surfaced, Project 2049 Institute’s Robert Cliff dismissed the notion that the J-31 would pose a serious threat to the F-35 in terms of overseas sales.

    ““India won’t buy it. Russia won’t buy it,” Cliff noted, adding: “That pretty much leaves countries like Pakistan, Brazil, some Middle East countries, none of whom [the U.S. is] likely to sell the F-35 to anytime this decade or next.”

    He also said that he did not believe Saudi Arabia was interested in the plane.

    Pakistan is perhaps the most likely foreign purchaser of the fighter. Pakistan and China previously jointly developed the JF-17 Thunder advanced fighter, although only Islamabad has ended up purchasing the jet thus far. This week Pakistani officials called on China to increase cooperation in the area of defense production. Beijing has long helped Islamabad acquire the necessary knowledge and expertise to develop a more advanced domestic defense industry.

    http://thediplomat.com/flashpoints-b...-35-for-sales/
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  18. #38
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    Re: China's J-31/F-60 Shenyang stealth fighter

    More updating.


    Photos Of New Chinese Fighter Appear



    September 17, 2012

    A second Chinese stealth fighter, apparently from Avic’s Shenyang plant, has appeared in seemingly genuine pictures that cropped up on Chinese web sites Sept. 15.

    The twin-engine, single-seat fighter, shown at an airfield, appears to approximate the Lockheed Martin F-35 in size, with a somewhat shallower body but a similar span of about 11.4 meters (37.5 ft.), as indicated by comparison with a commercial aircraft tug shown pulling it.

    The aircraft features a large ventral weapons bay. Wing sweep looks to be less than 45 deg. on the leading edge, as it was on a wrapped fighter-like object that was hauled by road from Shenyang to Xi’an in June. That trucked object could well have been the now-assembled prototype, three photographs of which have appeared.

    Whenever photographs of new weapons appear on nonofficial web sites in China, the risk of fakery is at least as great as elsewhere. But the publication and sustained appearance of the three shots on the large Chinese web portal Sina somewhat supports their veracity.

    The source of the pictures is unknown; assuming they are real, they are probably official but unacknowledged, intended to let the world know how far China has gone in developing a smaller companion to the so-called J-20 fighter of Chengdu Aircraft, Shenyang’s rival.

    Moreover, the photographs have evidently been staged with the intent of not only revealing the fighter but also letting observers easily measure it and appreciate some of its features. The object hauled on the back of a truck in June was similarly placed next to objects of known size to aid photometric analysis.

    Among the most distinctive features on the prototype are doors for the weapons bay. They were about a third as long as the whole aircraft, meaning that the bay must be at least 5 meters long. Assuming that the Chinese military has deliberately revealed the prototype, it surely opened the doors just as deliberately, to show the location and size of the bay. Similarly, a directly head-on shot conveniently showed trapezoidal intakes much like the F-22’s and the angle of the twin canted fins and lower body, about 25 deg.

    The engines could well be Klimov RD-93s, which have been imported from Russia for the JF-17 export fighter. If so, a Chinese engine would presumably follow. The engines appear to be installed aft of the bulkhead that carries the main landing gear. The exact routing of inlet ducts, a key issue in reducing radar reflections, could not be judged, but a bulge on top of the fuselage shows that they rise well above the wing.

    The location of the prototype was not clear from the photos, but Xi’an, the destination of the trucked object in June, has a flight test center. While China has not officially acknowledged the existence of the Shenyang aircraft, it has been popularly called J-21 or J-31. Shenyang displayed a model of a similar aircraft labeled F-60 last year. The prototype differs at least in having different moveable wing surfaces and in lacking a stinger between the nozzles.

    Simultaneous development of two stealth fighters indicates the allocation of enormous resources by China. But if the country is to continue to catch up to Western fighter technology, it probably cannot afford first to get the J-20 into service and then to move on to a smaller aircraft as a replacement for Chengdu’s J-10. The J-10 began large-scale entry into service in 2006 and is unlikely to be considered fit as a first-rank aircraft in the late 2020s.

    Also, China will want a domestically built fighter for the aircraft carrier it is now testing, as well as any follow-on ships. The J-20 is probably too large for carrier use. On the other hand, views of the truck-hauled object suggested that the Shenyang fighter had only a modestly sized wing; carrier aircraft need relatively large wings. Conceivably, a big-wing carrier version of the new fighter could be built, like the F-35C.

    http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....496516.xml&p=2


    China Unveils Second Stealth Fighter



    By Bill Sweetman, Richard Fisher, Bradley Perrett
    Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology

    Bill Sweetman and Richard Fisher Washington and Bradley Perrett Beijing

    China's unveiling of a second low-observable (LO) or stealthy fighter, a Shenyang product possibly designated J-31, followed the same pattern as the revelation of the Chengdu J-20 at the end of 2010: Photos were leaked via the Internet on the eve of a U.S. defense secretary's visit to Beijing. The not-too-subtle message, as the U.S. follows through with its plans to shift air and naval forces to the Pacific region, is that China's own military modernization is not slowing down.

    The first images of the J-31 show that the aircraft is very different from the large, canard-delta J-20. The Shenyang fighter appears to be much smaller than the J-20, with about two-thirds as much installed power. It is a quad-tail design with a moderately swept clipped-delta wing and large canted vertical tails, with a similar overall layout to the Lockheed Martin F-22—but more like the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter in terms of overall size. Weapon bays occupy the entire lower body aft of the inlets and ahead of the engine bays (unlike on the J-20, there are no side bays). Flight controls are conventional, with separate rudders and single-piece flaperons.

    As in the case of the J-20, most of the stealth-shaping techniques are very similar to those on Lockheed Martin fighters, but the engine nozzles are conventional. The nozzle shape on the prototype is close to that of the Klimov RD-93 engine installation on the Chengdu JF-17 fighter, minus the tapered “collar” that fairs the latter's nozzle into the aft fuselage. Thrust vectoring has been studied in China but has not yet been demonstrated in flight.

    One common feature of the J-20 and J-31 is that both, from images seen to date, appear to be beyond an “X-plane” stage. Both are equipped with weapon bays; both are full-scale demonstrators, and neither appears to use any components of existing aircraft. However, the timing of the development of operational variants and full-scale production remains uncertain. China is continuing the development of conventional non-stealthy fighters, and it remains to be seen when industry there can start producing competitive domestic engines and break the nation's dependency on imported Russian power. (So far, all production JF-17s have been RD-93-powered although a Chinese replacement, the Guizhou WS-13, is under development.)

    Although there is no official information campaign for either of China's new stealth fighters, the “unofficial” information campaigns allowed to flourish on the Internet by government authorities have been markedly different, revealing much more about the Shenyang fighter.

    In September 2011, China's Aviation Industries Corp. (Avic) sponsored a competition for unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) models at the China Aviation Museum outside Beijing, and as part of the attendant displays, the Shenyang University of Aeronautics and Astronautics (SUAA) presented a model of a twin-engine stealthy fighter with the F-60 designator on the canted vertical stabilizer. SUAA has been involved in UAV, UCAV and now fighter design work for Shenyang.

    Late in June, a crudely covered full-scale fighter, without its vertical stabilizers, was openly transported on a flatbed truck from Shenyang to Yanliang Air Base near the major aerospace city of Xian, home of the China Flight Test Establishment of the People's Liberation Army Air Force. At the time, there was speculation that this aircraft was intended for Yanliang's static stress-testing facilities. The aircraft shape was broadly similar to the SUAA model.

    One reason for this difference, according to some Chinese sources, is that Shenyang's fighter may not be a fully air force-funded program, but an initiative derived from its losing competitor to the Chengdu J-20. The various plants of the Avic group, such as Chengdu Aircraft and Shenyang Aircraft, have a long tradition of rivalry. To overcome that, the group began bundling them together from 2008 into specialist subsidiaries in which they were supposed to work together. But the defense ministry opposed tight integration of the defense subsidiary—including Chengdu and Shenyang—in order to maintain closer control and probably to retain and foster competition among them.

    But it is also possible that Shenyang's fighter does have an official sponsor: the Chinese navy. Shenyang is the builder of the navy's first carrier-based fighter–the Sukhoi Su-33-derived J-15. The J-31 would be more adaptable to carrier operations than the bigger J-20—although it might still need enhancements such as a bigger wing, an improved high-lift and control system, and thrust vectoring. Finally, the J-31 could be a smaller, less costly complement to the J-20.

    http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....497666.xml&p=1

  19. #39
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    Re: China's J-31/F-60 Shenyang stealth fighter













    China's just amazing in various platforms.

  20. #40
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    Re: China's J-31/F-60 Shenyang stealth fighter













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