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  1. #1
    Member John Mcclane's Avatar
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    Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Durrani View Post
    The post-colonialism era is over, so ofcourse Muslims in the 21st century are in hurry to fix everything.

    If Islamism mean combining religion and state that is what Islam says.

    Everybody knows in Islam there is no seperation of state and religion.

    Secularism and Islam are exclusive. They are in contradiction.

    Nobody likes the secularists.
    See now these discussions are so much more fun. Why PAF doesn't open debate on these things in an open manner is beyond me.

    Mr. Durrani, I fully disagree with you. My question is what precisely do you want to implement in Islamic laws that secular laws cannot implement? 90% of your penal code IS secular and these laws are fine, all the crappy laws are religious. You don't have ONE Islamic law that is not mired in controversy.

    My big problem is pro-rapist laws implemented in each and every implementation of what you want. Don't tell me these are wrong implementations. The implementer will get you books upon books of Ahadith and Quranic ayahs justifying it. Rape a woman in private and she can't touch you unless you had the poor judgement to set up a full audience of your rape and getting those 4 witnesses. But after she complains about having been raped and if she is unmarried AND its proven that she has lost her virginity then send her to jail because she had extra marital sex with someone.

    Pakistan's half disease is its reliance on these religious laws.
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    Re: defencedotpk sold out to "Foreigners" :D

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    See now these discussions are so much more fun. Why PAF doesn't open debate on these things in an open manner is beyond me.

    Mr. Durrani, I fully disagree with you. My question is what precisely do you want to implement in Islamic laws that secular laws cannot implement? 90% of your penal code IS secular and these laws are fine, all the crappy laws are religious. You don't have ONE Islamic law that is not mired in controversy.

    My big problem is pro-rapist laws implemented in each and every implementation of what you want. Don't tell me these are wrong implementations. The implementer will get you books upon books of Ahadith and Quranic ayahs justifying it. Rape a woman in private and she can't touch you unless you had the poor judgement to set up a full audience of your rape and getting those 4 witnesses. But after she complains about having been raped and if she is unmarried AND its proven that she has lost her virginity then send her to jail because she had extra marital sex with someone.

    Pakistan's half disease is its reliance on these religious laws.
    There are many important Islamic laws to implement.

    One of the famous and unchanging is the cutting of the hand of a genuine thief. If Pakistan actually implemented that law in Pakistan, there would be barely any theft.

    Stoning to death for adultery and flogging for fornication.

    John mcclane you are funny guy.

    And to be quite frank I never see Pakistanis take inspiration from european cultures.

    I also always see Pakistani Muslims take inspiration from the Islamic Caliphates (Rashidun, Ummayyads, Abbassids, even the Fatimids even theough the Fatimids aren't accpeted by Sunnis) , Mughals, Ottomans, Timurids,

    why take the name of John? lol hahaha. I have yet to see any Pakistani call themselves "John."

    Why not a Persian name like Firoz. There many beautiful names in Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Urdu, Uzbek.

    Why choose John?

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    Re: defencedotpk sold out to "Foreigners" :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Durrani View Post
    There are many important Islamic laws to implement.

    One of the famous and unchanging is the cutting of the hand of a genuine thief. If Pakistan actually implemented that law in Pakistan, there would be barely any theft.

    Stoning to death for adultery and flogging for fornication.

    John mcclane you are funny guy.

    And to be quite frank I never see Pakistanis take inspiration from european cultures.

    I also always see Pakistani Muslims take inspiration from the Islamic Caliphates (Rashidun, Ummayyads, Abbassids, even the Fatimids even theough the Fatimids aren't accpeted by Sunnis) , Mughals, Ottomans, Timurids,

    why take the name of John? lol hahaha. I have yet to see any Pakistani call themselves "John."

    Why not a Persian name like Firoz. There many beautiful names in Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Urdu, Uzbek.

    Why choose John?
    With respect what difference does it make what name he picks? Its just a forum name. No big deal. Why make it an issue? You changed your name for whatever reason - doesn't mean it becomes an issue.
    Please read what he says carefully because he makes an extremely good point about the rape law in our nation. In fact the interpretation and implementation of this is disgraceful and any sane Pakistani would think the same.
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    [MENTION=2063]John Mcclane[/MENTION] [MENTION=2409]Durrani[/MENTION] good idea debate it here on this thread
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryan_B View Post
    [MENTION=2063]John Mcclane[/MENTION] [MENTION=2409]Durrani[/MENTION] good idea debate it here on this thread
    I have little knowledge on the rape laws. I'm not an Islamic scholar.

    I only know enough to have an understanding about what I'm talking about.

    Sharia is an integral part of Islam.

    There are constants in Islam which are absolutely not challenged. Like the headscarf worn by girls, polygamy is allowed, prohibition of alcohol.

    If the debate is about rape laws, I dont know the rape laws very well to make an informed opinion.

    If this is about Sharia and religion and state. Then we know the obvious.

    There is no separation of state and religion in Islam, and implementation of Sharia is must in Islam.

    There is no if and buts about this matter.

  6. #6
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    The MAIN problem with Pakistan right now OR ANY Muslim country is that they have FORGOTTEN ISLAM!

    Islam NEVER TALKED about monarchy! We are supposed to have a committee to elect a leader based on votes! But now in Middle east people are leaders based on birth right! While in Pakistan if you are a goon you can be a politician!

    In Pakistan we have CORRUPTION at EVERY SINGLE level...which causes laws to be distorted...

    For example:

    A goon NEVER makes it to trial (something like drug lords in America) either the evidence, witness vanishes or is thrown out as inconclusive!

    Even if 1 is sent to jail, he gets VIP treatment, AC, TV with cable all on the expense of the govt....

    When a rape happens we have weird idiots who side the rapist and blame the woman from being immodest, to asking for it to why she allowed it..Hell dont people know rape means FORCED UPON?! seriously which woman ALLOWS it?! Stupid backward people!

    Then we have thieves who steal small things and are given few YEARS in jail while those looting the country are given presidential seats!

    Mind you the chopping of the hands is ONLY if the person convicted accepts their fault and not to an accused...because accused is always doubtful that he MAY HAVE DONE it....and even when proven, the proofs could be planted! So ONLY when admitted can the law be thrown...but corrupt society wants everyone's hands to be chopped be he wrongly accused or anything!

    Even if we implement Islamic laws, these laws will either get distorted or wrong people will be accused:

    poor people will loose their hands and many other craziness! What we REALLY NEED is SOME PEOPLE WHO REALLY care about the country to punish these corrupt people and set examples!
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    A license to rape

    A series of events in the past few weeks have again highlighted the injustices being committed against women in the name of Islam in Pakistan. Recently, the three accused of raping an 18-year old woman at Jinnah’s Mausoleum were set free by a court in Karachi. The court refused to entertain the DNA evidence, which reportedly proved the guilt of the accused, and gave the accused the benefit of the doubt because the victim could not produce four eyewitnesses to the rape. Weeks later, the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) decreed that the DNA evidence in the absence of four righteous men as witnesses to rape is not sufficient for conviction under Islamic law.

    While women are being discriminated in Pakistan and elsewhere in the name of Islam, there is nothing Islamic or divine about the man-made laws in Pakistan. Take the case of the Hudood laws in Pakistan, which were enacted by the then military dictator General Zia to Islamicize Pakistan’s legal system. A close scrutiny of the laws reveals that the Hudood laws, which also cover offenses related to rape, are in fact a legacy of the British Colonial law. As these laws stand today, they discriminate against women rather than protecting their rights. Furthermore, the refusal to embrace modern-day forensic evidence is a divergence from the Islamic tradition where similar techniques have been used by the Muslim jurists to resolve disputes in the past.

    In a well-researched paper published in 1997, Professor Asifa Quraishi explains that the rape laws in Pakistan are anything but Islamic. Drawing exclusively from Islamic sources and Quranic injunctions, Professor Quraishi makes the following points. First, the Quranic injunctions are restricted to zina (consensual sexual act by adults outside of marriage). There is no mention of rape in Quran. Secondly the intent of the Quranic injunctions was to prevent lewd behavior in public and to limit instances of false accusations. The requirement to produce four witnesses who had explicitly witnessed the sexual act is possible only if the act is being committed in public and in nude. This suggests that “unlawful sexual intercourse will be prosecuted by the state only when it is publically indecent.”

    The noble Quran forbade Zina (fornication) in Surat Al-'Isrā' (17:32) and prescribed the punishment in Surat An-Nūr (24:2). The noble Quran then reads:

    Those who defame chaste women and do not bring four witnesses (shuhada) should be punished with eighty lashes, and their testimony should not be accepted afterwards, for they are profligates. (24:4)

    The Quranic speech is clear and without confusion. The requirement to produce four witnesses, and not just male witnesses, is required by the Quran to prevent false accusations of fornication against women. The Quran does not ask for four male witnesses, but General Zia’s Hudood ordinance did when it required “at least four Muslim adult witnesses, about whom the Court is satisfied, having regard to the requirements of tazkiyah al-shuhood …”

    The Quranic intent had been to protect the rights of women against false accusations. General Zia’s Hudood Ordinance accomplished exactly the opposite. Firstly, it unnecessarily confused rape, a violent crime, with fornication. Secondly, the Hudood ordinance has made it impossible for a rape victim to get justice in Pakistan. Under the Hudood Ordinance, the Courts require four “adult male” eyewitnesses to rape. When a female victim fails to produce four male eyewitnesses, she is then charged under Tazeer for fornication. If the woman becomes pregnant as a result of rape, the rapist/s gets a walk, while the woman is charged with fornication using pregnancy as a proof.

    Man-made law

    How is it possible that the very Quranic injunctions that were supposed to safeguard women’s rights were reversed by General Zia to discriminate against them? Professor Qurashi offers the answer to this riddle by exposing the plagiarist jurists commissioned by the military dictator to draft the Hudood Ordinances. She reproduces the texts of the Hudood Ordinances enacted by General Zia, and the earlier British Common Law of rape. I have reproduced below verbatim the two texts to demonstrate that what was presented to Pakistanis as the divine law was in fact a cut-and-paste from the British Common Law. Even the explanation to what constitutes as rape is identical in the two texts.



    What the mullahs defend in Pakistan today is not the divine law, it is the British Common Law. The Quran does not explicitly refer to rape. But the laws to prosecute rape have been enacted in the name of Islam. In their eagerness to promote their cultural patriarchal biases, the jurists have imposed their ignorant and misogynist views over Islamic jurisprudence. Where the noble Quran suggested four witnesses, they turned into four male witnesses; whereas the Quran intended to prevent false accusations against women, the mullahs created laws that had no parallel with Islam.

    Professor Qurashi points out that requiring four male witnesses, as is stated in the Hudood Ordinance, creates this situation where women could no longer be accused of slander. If a woman’s testimony is not admissible in the Court, as per the Hadood Ordinance, a woman can make false accusations against others without fearing punishment.

    The Hudood Ordinance, as it stands today, prevents women in Pakistan from following the noble Quran that states in Surat An-Nisā:

    O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever acquainted with what you do. [4:135]

    This infringement of Quranic law continues unabated in Pakistan.

    Is Islam against circumstantial or forensic evidence?

    The precedence for circumstantial evidence is set in Surat Yusuf (12:23 – 12:29) in the Quran where it narrates the story of Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) being accused by a woman of attempting to rape her.

    The Quran narrates the story in the following verses (12:23 – 12:29):

    And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him. She closed the doors and said, "Come, you." He said, "[I seek] the refuge of Allah. Indeed, he is my master, who has made good my residence. Indeed, wrongdoers will not succeed." And she certainly determined [to seduce] him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus [it was] that we should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants. And they both raced to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back, and they found her husband at the door. She said, "What is the recompense of one who intended evil for your wife but that he be imprisoned or a painful punishment?" [Joseph] said, "It was she who sought to seduce me." And a witness from her family testified. "If his shirt is torn from the front, then she has told the truth, and he is of the liars. But if his shirt is torn from the back, then she has lied, and he is of the truthful." So when her husband saw his shirt torn from the back, he said, "Indeed, it is of the women's plan. Indeed, your plan is great. Joseph, ignore this. And, [my wife], ask forgiveness for your sin. Indeed, you were of the sinful."

    Circumstantial and forensic evidence are not merely an invention of the modern times. The story about the Prophet in Egypt suggests that centuries old legal traditions relied on logic and commonsense. In fact, there is even evidence of the use of forensic evidence in the early days of Islam. Anwar Mahmud Dabur in al-Qara’in wa Dawruha fi al-fiqh al-Jina’i al-Islami (p. 215) narrates the story of a woman who falsely accused another man of rape. She spread the egg yolk on herself and her clothes and brought it as evidence to Caliph Umar ibn Khattab. The Caliph consulted another woman who confirmed the woman’s clothing bore semen stains. The Caliph consulted Ali (subsequently the fourth Caliph), who immersed the stained cloth in boiling water that turned the stains into white solid, which smelled and looked like egg yolk.

    The Islamic tradition provides for the use of the scientific evidence in legal matters. Forensic evidence can be used under the tradition of Qarinah (circumstantial evidence) and al-ra’y al-khabir (expert opinion). The Prophet himself is reported to have consulted an expert on face recognition to settle a paternity dispute (Sunan al-Dar Qutni, p. 240). By turning our collective backs on science, logic, and ijtihad, we have brought ourselves to a state where discrimination against women and the disenfranchised is being committed in the name of Islam.

    A study of 74 cases of rape or attempted rape registered at the Shadman female police station in Lahore during 1995 and 2008 reveal the ugly consequences of inadequate legal frameworks in Pakistan. Writing in the Journal of the College of Physicians and Surgeons in Pakistan in 2010, Dr. Iram Manzoor and others discovered that most rape victims were aged between 10 and 19 years old. Approximately 74 per cent victims were unmarried, 83 per cent had grade eight or lower education, and 82 per cent were unemployed. In the 13-year period, only five per cent accused were convicted of the crime.

    The five per cent conviction rate for rape has been reported in other studies in Pakistan. As a comparison, the conviction rate for rape in neighbouring India is around 26 per cent. In a written statement to the Parliament, the Minister of State for Home Affairs revealed that 24,206 rape cases were registered in 2011 and 5,724 were convicted.

    The superior courts in Pakistan must act without delay to address the shortcomings in the Hudood Ordinances. For decades women in Pakistan have been discriminated against in the name of Islam. Quran does not explicitly address rape. In fact, the Islamic jurisprudence deals with rape under Hiraba and Jirah; even allowing for compensation for the rape victims.

    If it is indeed true that the rape laws are anything but Islamic, they should then have no place in Pakistan’s judicial system. This matter, however, cannot be left to the mullahs to decide. We already know what they believe in. It is the time for the rest of us to speak up.

    The victims of rape are the ones put on trial. The law is a humiliating centre piece of our society.....

    Murtaza Haider, Ph.D. is the Associate Dean of research and graduate programs at the Ted Rogers School of Management at Ryerson University in Toronto.
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Durrani View Post
    I have little knowledge on the rape laws. I'm not an Islamic scholar.

    I only know enough to have an understanding about what I'm talking about.

    Sharia is an integral part of Islam.

    There are constants in Islam which are absolutely not challenged. Like the headscarf worn by girls, polygamy is allowed, prohibition of alcohol.

    If the debate is about rape laws, I dont know the rape laws very well to make an informed opinion.

    If this is about Sharia and religion and state. Then we know the obvious.

    There is no separation of state and religion in Islam, and implementation of Sharia is must in Islam.

    There is no if and buts about this matter.
    Implementing shariah in a country which does not implement basic Islamic laws is not practical!

    If women were asked to cover and then rape occurred then yes behead the 1 caught, bring the proof and finally pin those to him...In Pak today no one gives a crap and wants to "waste time" as they call it...it is easier to catch the wrong guy, beat him to admitting he did it or simply blame the girl!

    If we have goons getting away with stealing and then push forward chopping off hands of the poor who cant bribe the police ...then instead of justice you are raising injustice and Sadly THEN Shariah will fail and people will have a lot to talk about!
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    The most shame ever on our judiciary system. Hang your heads in shame. Protect our women not humiliate them
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Superkaif View Post
    A license to rape

    A series of events in the past few weeks have again highlighted the injustices being committed against women in the name of Islam in Pakistan. Recently, the three accused of raping an 18-year old woman at Jinnah’s Mausoleum were set free by a court in Karachi. The court refused to entertain the DNA evidence, which reportedly proved the guilt of the accused, and gave the accused the benefit of the doubt because the victim could not produce four eyewitnesses to the rape. Weeks later, the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) decreed that the DNA evidence in the absence of four righteous men as witnesses to rape is not sufficient for conviction under Islamic law.

    While women are being discriminated in Pakistan and elsewhere in the name of Islam, there is nothing Islamic or divine about the man-made laws in Pakistan. Take the case of the Hudood laws in Pakistan, which were enacted by the then military dictator General Zia to Islamicize Pakistan’s legal system. A close scrutiny of the laws reveals that the Hudood laws, which also cover offenses related to rape, are in fact a legacy of the British Colonial law. As these laws stand today, they discriminate against women rather than protecting their rights. Furthermore, the refusal to embrace modern-day forensic evidence is a divergence from the Islamic tradition where similar techniques have been used by the Muslim jurists to resolve disputes in the past.

    In a well-researched paper published in 1997, Professor Asifa Quraishi explains that the rape laws in Pakistan are anything but Islamic. Drawing exclusively from Islamic sources and Quranic injunctions, Professor Quraishi makes the following points. First, the Quranic injunctions are restricted to zina (consensual sexual act by adults outside of marriage). There is no mention of rape in Quran. Secondly the intent of the Quranic injunctions was to prevent lewd behavior in public and to limit instances of false accusations. The requirement to produce four witnesses who had explicitly witnessed the sexual act is possible only if the act is being committed in public and in nude. This suggests that “unlawful sexual intercourse will be prosecuted by the state only when it is publically indecent.”

    The noble Quran forbade Zina (fornication) in Surat Al-'Isrā' (17:32) and prescribed the punishment in Surat An-Nūr (24:2). The noble Quran then reads:

    Those who defame chaste women and do not bring four witnesses (shuhada) should be punished with eighty lashes, and their testimony should not be accepted afterwards, for they are profligates. (24:4)

    The Quranic speech is clear and without confusion. The requirement to produce four witnesses, and not just male witnesses, is required by the Quran to prevent false accusations of fornication against women. The Quran does not ask for four male witnesses, but General Zia’s Hudood ordinance did when it required “at least four Muslim adult witnesses, about whom the Court is satisfied, having regard to the requirements of tazkiyah al-shuhood …”

    The Quranic intent had been to protect the rights of women against false accusations. General Zia’s Hudood Ordinance accomplished exactly the opposite. Firstly, it unnecessarily confused rape, a violent crime, with fornication. Secondly, the Hudood ordinance has made it impossible for a rape victim to get justice in Pakistan. Under the Hudood Ordinance, the Courts require four “adult male” eyewitnesses to rape. When a female victim fails to produce four male eyewitnesses, she is then charged under Tazeer for fornication. If the woman becomes pregnant as a result of rape, the rapist/s gets a walk, while the woman is charged with fornication using pregnancy as a proof.

    Man-made law

    How is it possible that the very Quranic injunctions that were supposed to safeguard women’s rights were reversed by General Zia to discriminate against them? Professor Qurashi offers the answer to this riddle by exposing the plagiarist jurists commissioned by the military dictator to draft the Hudood Ordinances. She reproduces the texts of the Hudood Ordinances enacted by General Zia, and the earlier British Common Law of rape. I have reproduced below verbatim the two texts to demonstrate that what was presented to Pakistanis as the divine law was in fact a cut-and-paste from the British Common Law. Even the explanation to what constitutes as rape is identical in the two texts.



    What the mullahs defend in Pakistan today is not the divine law, it is the British Common Law. The Quran does not explicitly refer to rape. But the laws to prosecute rape have been enacted in the name of Islam. In their eagerness to promote their cultural patriarchal biases, the jurists have imposed their ignorant and misogynist views over Islamic jurisprudence. Where the noble Quran suggested four witnesses, they turned into four male witnesses; whereas the Quran intended to prevent false accusations against women, the mullahs created laws that had no parallel with Islam.

    Professor Qurashi points out that requiring four male witnesses, as is stated in the Hudood Ordinance, creates this situation where women could no longer be accused of slander. If a woman’s testimony is not admissible in the Court, as per the Hadood Ordinance, a woman can make false accusations against others without fearing punishment.

    The Hudood Ordinance, as it stands today, prevents women in Pakistan from following the noble Quran that states in Surat An-Nisā:

    O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever acquainted with what you do. [4:135]

    This infringement of Quranic law continues unabated in Pakistan.

    Is Islam against circumstantial or forensic evidence?

    The precedence for circumstantial evidence is set in Surat Yusuf (12:23 – 12:29) in the Quran where it narrates the story of Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) being accused by a woman of attempting to rape her.

    The Quran narrates the story in the following verses (12:23 – 12:29):

    And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him. She closed the doors and said, "Come, you." He said, "[I seek] the refuge of Allah. Indeed, he is my master, who has made good my residence. Indeed, wrongdoers will not succeed." And she certainly determined [to seduce] him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus [it was] that we should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants. And they both raced to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back, and they found her husband at the door. She said, "What is the recompense of one who intended evil for your wife but that he be imprisoned or a painful punishment?" [Joseph] said, "It was she who sought to seduce me." And a witness from her family testified. "If his shirt is torn from the front, then she has told the truth, and he is of the liars. But if his shirt is torn from the back, then she has lied, and he is of the truthful." So when her husband saw his shirt torn from the back, he said, "Indeed, it is of the women's plan. Indeed, your plan is great. Joseph, ignore this. And, [my wife], ask forgiveness for your sin. Indeed, you were of the sinful."

    Circumstantial and forensic evidence are not merely an invention of the modern times. The story about the Prophet in Egypt suggests that centuries old legal traditions relied on logic and commonsense. In fact, there is even evidence of the use of forensic evidence in the early days of Islam. Anwar Mahmud Dabur in al-Qara’in wa Dawruha fi al-fiqh al-Jina’i al-Islami (p. 215) narrates the story of a woman who falsely accused another man of rape. She spread the egg yolk on herself and her clothes and brought it as evidence to Caliph Umar ibn Khattab. The Caliph consulted another woman who confirmed the woman’s clothing bore semen stains. The Caliph consulted Ali (subsequently the fourth Caliph), who immersed the stained cloth in boiling water that turned the stains into white solid, which smelled and looked like egg yolk.

    The Islamic tradition provides for the use of the scientific evidence in legal matters. Forensic evidence can be used under the tradition of Qarinah (circumstantial evidence) and al-ra’y al-khabir (expert opinion). The Prophet himself is reported to have consulted an expert on face recognition to settle a paternity dispute (Sunan al-Dar Qutni, p. 240). By turning our collective backs on science, logic, and ijtihad, we have brought ourselves to a state where discrimination against women and the disenfranchised is being committed in the name of Islam.

    A study of 74 cases of rape or attempted rape registered at the Shadman female police station in Lahore during 1995 and 2008 reveal the ugly consequences of inadequate legal frameworks in Pakistan. Writing in the Journal of the College of Physicians and Surgeons in Pakistan in 2010, Dr. Iram Manzoor and others discovered that most rape victims were aged between 10 and 19 years old. Approximately 74 per cent victims were unmarried, 83 per cent had grade eight or lower education, and 82 per cent were unemployed. In the 13-year period, only five per cent accused were convicted of the crime.

    The five per cent conviction rate for rape has been reported in other studies in Pakistan. As a comparison, the conviction rate for rape in neighbouring India is around 26 per cent. In a written statement to the Parliament, the Minister of State for Home Affairs revealed that 24,206 rape cases were registered in 2011 and 5,724 were convicted.

    The superior courts in Pakistan must act without delay to address the shortcomings in the Hudood Ordinances. For decades women in Pakistan have been discriminated against in the name of Islam. Quran does not explicitly address rape. In fact, the Islamic jurisprudence deals with rape under Hiraba and Jirah; even allowing for compensation for the rape victims.

    If it is indeed true that the rape laws are anything but Islamic, they should then have no place in Pakistan’s judicial system. This matter, however, cannot be left to the mullahs to decide. We already know what they believe in. It is the time for the rest of us to speak up.

    The victims of rape are the ones put on trial. The law is a humiliating centre piece of our society.....

    Murtaza Haider, Ph.D. is the Associate Dean of research and graduate programs at the Ted Rogers School of Management at Ryerson University in Toronto.
    btw Superkaif I didnt read your posts completely, just skimmed through just to get basic grasp.

    I would love to debate, but I dont know everything.

    I would have ask Islamic scholars how Sharia would implemented 100% in Pakistan.

    As far as I know, the system in Pakistan is far from correct. I know there are serious problems in Pakistani legal system. Much of it based from the Anglo-Saxon system.

    I am aware there are deep problems in the political system. I'm against multi-party democracy. Personally I would go for one-party system.

    Like I said this is a complex subject which needs a lot of time and effort to discuss. Its not a matter that can be discussed in matter of minutes.

    I dont know about the rape laws.

    The basic principle in Islam is to be just.

    If the rape laws are based on a wrong interpretation or are contrary to the basic principles of Sharia or Islam, they should thrown out obviously.

    Like I said I dont know the rape laws, so I how can even discuss.
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Superkaif View Post
    A license to rape

    A series of events in the past few weeks have again highlighted the injustices being committed against women in the name of Islam in Pakistan. Recently, the three accused of raping an 18-year old woman at Jinnah’s Mausoleum were set free by a court in Karachi. The court refused to entertain the DNA evidence, which reportedly proved the guilt of the accused, and gave the accused the benefit of the doubt because the victim could not produce four eyewitnesses to the rape. Weeks later, the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) decreed that the DNA evidence in the absence of four righteous men as witnesses to rape is not sufficient for conviction under Islamic law.

    While women are being discriminated in Pakistan and elsewhere in the name of Islam, there is nothing Islamic or divine about the man-made laws in Pakistan. Take the case of the Hudood laws in Pakistan, which were enacted by the then military dictator General Zia to Islamicize Pakistan’s legal system. A close scrutiny of the laws reveals that the Hudood laws, which also cover offenses related to rape, are in fact a legacy of the British Colonial law. As these laws stand today, they discriminate against women rather than protecting their rights. Furthermore, the refusal to embrace modern-day forensic evidence is a divergence from the Islamic tradition where similar techniques have been used by the Muslim jurists to resolve disputes in the past.

    In a well-researched paper published in 1997, Professor Asifa Quraishi explains that the rape laws in Pakistan are anything but Islamic. Drawing exclusively from Islamic sources and Quranic injunctions, Professor Quraishi makes the following points. First, the Quranic injunctions are restricted to zina (consensual sexual act by adults outside of marriage). There is no mention of rape in Quran. Secondly the intent of the Quranic injunctions was to prevent lewd behavior in public and to limit instances of false accusations. The requirement to produce four witnesses who had explicitly witnessed the sexual act is possible only if the act is being committed in public and in nude. This suggests that “unlawful sexual intercourse will be prosecuted by the state only when it is publically indecent.”

    The noble Quran forbade Zina (fornication) in Surat Al-'Isrā' (17:32) and prescribed the punishment in Surat An-Nūr (24:2). The noble Quran then reads:

    Those who defame chaste women and do not bring four witnesses (shuhada) should be punished with eighty lashes, and their testimony should not be accepted afterwards, for they are profligates. (24:4)

    The Quranic speech is clear and without confusion. The requirement to produce four witnesses, and not just male witnesses, is required by the Quran to prevent false accusations of fornication against women. The Quran does not ask for four male witnesses, but General Zia’s Hudood ordinance did when it required “at least four Muslim adult witnesses, about whom the Court is satisfied, having regard to the requirements of tazkiyah al-shuhood …”

    The Quranic intent had been to protect the rights of women against false accusations. General Zia’s Hudood Ordinance accomplished exactly the opposite. Firstly, it unnecessarily confused rape, a violent crime, with fornication. Secondly, the Hudood ordinance has made it impossible for a rape victim to get justice in Pakistan. Under the Hudood Ordinance, the Courts require four “adult male” eyewitnesses to rape. When a female victim fails to produce four male eyewitnesses, she is then charged under Tazeer for fornication. If the woman becomes pregnant as a result of rape, the rapist/s gets a walk, while the woman is charged with fornication using pregnancy as a proof.

    Man-made law

    How is it possible that the very Quranic injunctions that were supposed to safeguard women’s rights were reversed by General Zia to discriminate against them? Professor Qurashi offers the answer to this riddle by exposing the plagiarist jurists commissioned by the military dictator to draft the Hudood Ordinances. She reproduces the texts of the Hudood Ordinances enacted by General Zia, and the earlier British Common Law of rape. I have reproduced below verbatim the two texts to demonstrate that what was presented to Pakistanis as the divine law was in fact a cut-and-paste from the British Common Law. Even the explanation to what constitutes as rape is identical in the two texts.



    What the mullahs defend in Pakistan today is not the divine law, it is the British Common Law. The Quran does not explicitly refer to rape. But the laws to prosecute rape have been enacted in the name of Islam. In their eagerness to promote their cultural patriarchal biases, the jurists have imposed their ignorant and misogynist views over Islamic jurisprudence. Where the noble Quran suggested four witnesses, they turned into four male witnesses; whereas the Quran intended to prevent false accusations against women, the mullahs created laws that had no parallel with Islam.

    Professor Qurashi points out that requiring four male witnesses, as is stated in the Hudood Ordinance, creates this situation where women could no longer be accused of slander. If a woman’s testimony is not admissible in the Court, as per the Hadood Ordinance, a woman can make false accusations against others without fearing punishment.

    The Hudood Ordinance, as it stands today, prevents women in Pakistan from following the noble Quran that states in Surat An-Nisā:

    O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort [your testimony] or refuse [to give it], then indeed Allah is ever acquainted with what you do. [4:135]

    This infringement of Quranic law continues unabated in Pakistan.

    Is Islam against circumstantial or forensic evidence?

    The precedence for circumstantial evidence is set in Surat Yusuf (12:23 – 12:29) in the Quran where it narrates the story of Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) being accused by a woman of attempting to rape her.

    The Quran narrates the story in the following verses (12:23 – 12:29):

    And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him. She closed the doors and said, "Come, you." He said, "[I seek] the refuge of Allah. Indeed, he is my master, who has made good my residence. Indeed, wrongdoers will not succeed." And she certainly determined [to seduce] him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus [it was] that we should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants. And they both raced to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back, and they found her husband at the door. She said, "What is the recompense of one who intended evil for your wife but that he be imprisoned or a painful punishment?" [Joseph] said, "It was she who sought to seduce me." And a witness from her family testified. "If his shirt is torn from the front, then she has told the truth, and he is of the liars. But if his shirt is torn from the back, then she has lied, and he is of the truthful." So when her husband saw his shirt torn from the back, he said, "Indeed, it is of the women's plan. Indeed, your plan is great. Joseph, ignore this. And, [my wife], ask forgiveness for your sin. Indeed, you were of the sinful."

    Circumstantial and forensic evidence are not merely an invention of the modern times. The story about the Prophet in Egypt suggests that centuries old legal traditions relied on logic and commonsense. In fact, there is even evidence of the use of forensic evidence in the early days of Islam. Anwar Mahmud Dabur in al-Qara’in wa Dawruha fi al-fiqh al-Jina’i al-Islami (p. 215) narrates the story of a woman who falsely accused another man of rape. She spread the egg yolk on herself and her clothes and brought it as evidence to Caliph Umar ibn Khattab. The Caliph consulted another woman who confirmed the woman’s clothing bore semen stains. The Caliph consulted Ali (subsequently the fourth Caliph), who immersed the stained cloth in boiling water that turned the stains into white solid, which smelled and looked like egg yolk.

    The Islamic tradition provides for the use of the scientific evidence in legal matters. Forensic evidence can be used under the tradition of Qarinah (circumstantial evidence) and al-ra’y al-khabir (expert opinion). The Prophet himself is reported to have consulted an expert on face recognition to settle a paternity dispute (Sunan al-Dar Qutni, p. 240). By turning our collective backs on science, logic, and ijtihad, we have brought ourselves to a state where discrimination against women and the disenfranchised is being committed in the name of Islam.

    A study of 74 cases of rape or attempted rape registered at the Shadman female police station in Lahore during 1995 and 2008 reveal the ugly consequences of inadequate legal frameworks in Pakistan. Writing in the Journal of the College of Physicians and Surgeons in Pakistan in 2010, Dr. Iram Manzoor and others discovered that most rape victims were aged between 10 and 19 years old. Approximately 74 per cent victims were unmarried, 83 per cent had grade eight or lower education, and 82 per cent were unemployed. In the 13-year period, only five per cent accused were convicted of the crime.

    The five per cent conviction rate for rape has been reported in other studies in Pakistan. As a comparison, the conviction rate for rape in neighbouring India is around 26 per cent. In a written statement to the Parliament, the Minister of State for Home Affairs revealed that 24,206 rape cases were registered in 2011 and 5,724 were convicted.

    The superior courts in Pakistan must act without delay to address the shortcomings in the Hudood Ordinances. For decades women in Pakistan have been discriminated against in the name of Islam. Quran does not explicitly address rape. In fact, the Islamic jurisprudence deals with rape under Hiraba and Jirah; even allowing for compensation for the rape victims.

    If it is indeed true that the rape laws are anything but Islamic, they should then have no place in Pakistan’s judicial system. This matter, however, cannot be left to the mullahs to decide. We already know what they believe in. It is the time for the rest of us to speak up.

    The victims of rape are the ones put on trial. The law is a humiliating centre piece of our society.....

    Murtaza Haider, Ph.D. is the Associate Dean of research and graduate programs at the Ted Rogers School of Management at Ryerson University in Toronto.
    Well if we have people with fake degree = lack of knowledge as they never really went to school/ collage or uni and hence do not understand science...Obviously will not allow "educated /scientific" stuff for typical paindoo are afraid of foreign works....
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Durrani View Post
    btw Superkaif I didnt read your posts completely, just skimmed through just to get basic grasp.

    I would love to debate, but I dont know everything.

    I would have ask Islamic scholars how Sharia would implemented 100% in Pakistan.

    As far as I know, the system in Pakistan is far from correct. I know there are serious problems in Pakistani legal system. Much of it based from the Anglo-Saxon system.

    I am aware there are deep problems in the political system. I'm against multi-party democracy. Personally I would go for one-party system.

    Like I said this is a complex subject which needs a lot of time and effort to discuss. Its not a matter that can be discussed in matter of minutes.

    I dont know about the rape laws.

    The basic principle in Islam is to be just.

    If the rape laws are based on a wrong interpretation or are contrary to the basic principles of Sharia or Islam, they should thrown out obviously.

    Like I said I dont know the rape laws, so I how can even discuss.
    Non of us are experts. What we can all agree is the law stinks when a victim has to produce 4 victims of the rape. Hell in fact I think the 4 smack heads that witnessed this event should be strung up too. We don't need to be experts to say its disgusting and unfair
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong View Post
    Non of us are experts. What we can all agree is the law stinks when a victim has to produce 4 victims of the rape. Hell in fact I think the 4 smack heads that witnessed this event should be strung up too. We don't need to be experts to say its disgusting and unfair
    If we are following the mainstream Islam or the Sunni/Salafi beliefs (not those who follow taqlid or sufism ), there is no exact perfect Islamic state today.

    Many Non-Muslims in the west try to look to Saudi Arabia and see it as 100% pure Islamic state.

    Saudi Arabia is also not 100% perfect. Saudi Arabia is doing a lot right, but Saudi Arabia is also making mistakes.

    Saudi Arabia is better than Pakistan though.

    Like I said I'm not an expert. When it comes to these matters you need an Islamic scholar(expert).
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong View Post
    Non of us are experts. What we can all agree is the law stinks when a victim has to produce 4 victims of the rape. Hell in fact I think the 4 smack heads that witnessed this event should be strung up too. We don't need to be experts to say its disgusting and unfair
    Well, I am no scholar but I have read a few stuff...

    1 thing for sure for rape it is said that all the woman needs to do is to take oath on Quran and say so and she will = 4 witness....

    Lets take a look at what the Quran says and to hell with whoever produced a fatwa stating ANYTHING ELSE:

    The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment. Quran Surah An-Nur, verse 2
    1stly, FOUND GUILTY no where does it say bring 4 witness...proof or evidence for such case is enough....And people should watch coz it is really painful to watch and so the next doesnt do this!

    And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient, Quran Surah An-Nur, verse 4
    Now this verse shows those who want to ACCUSE a woman THEY NEED 4 witness not the woman!


    Except for those who repent thereafter and reform, for indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Quran Surah An-Nur, verse 5
    The mercy of GOD is always followed for those who repent and reform!

    And those who accuse their wives [of adultery] and have no witnesses except themselves - then the witness of one of them [shall be] four testimonies [swearing] by Allah that indeed, he is of the truthful. And the fifth [oath will be] that the curse of Allah be upon him if he should be among the liars. Surah An-Nur, verse 6-7
    So again for ACCUSING a woman (wife) the husband can give witness and it will be counted as 4....HOWEVER

    But it will prevent punishment from her if she gives four testimonies [swearing] by Allah that indeed, he is of the liars. And the fifth [oath will be] that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he was of the truthful. Surah An-Nur, verse 9-10
    She can counter this by giving her own testimony! Nowhere is it a plus for the men!
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    In islam things hace been made simple...
    If a cópula are married they can have sex.....if they aren't married even their consensual sex is illegal and punishable by law..

    Consent can change during or after sex....there us no way of proving that consent was there or not .
    We see cases here in Britain where married women after years of marriage and living together and having babies....fell out with their husband and filed a rape case against the man....claiming that all the children are product of rape....as they despite being husband and wife ..... ha sex without her consent...
    Many men face jail due to crooked women like these..
    In Islam this falsification is prevented by making marriage as your righ to have sex.....because marriage can be proved.....consent cannot...

    For those reasons Islamic rape laws are far simpler and easy to follow than secular rape laws...

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    Elite Member contract killer's Avatar
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Can any one put some light on, what is Sharia law for a Rape case?

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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by contract killer View Post
    Can any one put some light on, what is Sharia law for a Rape case?
    Without being too technical we must look at the interpretation of the law. That's the key. Islamists implement the law in a way that women are treated very poorly from the start. The 4 witness or confession from the rapist are the only way to convict. Whats the chances of this happening? It stinks from the start.
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkling View Post
    Without being too technical we must look at the interpretation of the law. That's the key. Islamists implement the law in a way that women are treated very poorly from the start. The 4 witness or confession from the rapist are the only way to convict. Whats the chances of this happening? It stinks from the start.
    Noway this can bring justice to women.
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkling View Post
    Without being too technical we must look at the interpretation of the law. That's the key. Islamists implement the law in a way that women are treated very poorly from the start. The 4 witness or confession from the rapist are the only way to convict. Whats the chances of this happening? It stinks from the start.
    Anyone agreeing with this knows full well women cant get justice like this

  20. #20
    Member bored's Avatar
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by contract killer View Post
    Can any one put some light on, what is Sharia law for a Rape case?
    Shariah law states what I have shown in my post ...this thread post no. 14
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