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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    I have read the comments on this thread with some interest and some sadness for someone who in his personal life is a Muslim. We Muslims need to discuss and face these painful questions. In particular we find often in our societies we have govts that are corrupt and complicit with the west and often there is no organised opposition other than political Islam. We must be careful in turning away from the corrupt that we dont turn to those that want to interpret our religion in a manner that can only be described in an inaccurate manner in particular to this thread in a mysogenic way.

    I must say that most religions if not all are interpreted in a way that leads to abuse of women and minorities

    Painful though this introspection is it is something as men and women of conscience we can not ignore.


    Often when speaking of Islam we end up looking at it historically and its utility as ideology of state or societal control, and not as Islam as a religious experience
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkling View Post
    Nicely said bored.
    I have been to Saudi + I had too many Saudi friends...a lot of Saudi classmates in my MSc...and they felt the need to bitch about a number of things...esp politics ....

    Despite knowing something is wrong, they wouldnt stand up (like Pakistan I would say) but almost all were nice...both women and men...big hearts....

    The people are nice, but they have their priorities wrong....Some of these I met, at 1 hand they were showing off hundreds of £ handbags, shoes and whatnot...at another point they were saying how they waited for 3 yrs to get this "scholarship"...Dude you from top to bottom in a week wear about how much 1 month's tuition cost!!

    Then they wouldnt talk about how monarchy was wrong...They agreed with the non Saudis but they HAD THIS IN THEIR MINDS that the MONARCH was actually holding them together! As in without the Monarch they would be broken into tribes and all....

    Then they also told about their interior racism and all...Like how the East dont like the West (or was it the other way) and the North dont lke the South...Each tribe is full of itself...Reminded me a bit about India and Pakistan (almost every country has this prob...Germany -East/West issues ; UK - Scotland + Ireland issues; Italy - North/ South issues; Spain - Catalonia and most of Spain are few to mention....

    But why do they stand out? I mean the community is not bad...problematic but then again which isnt?? All this Nationalism crap really got into people's skull and decided to stay there!!
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryan_B View Post
    I have read the comments on this thread with some interest and some sadness for someone who in his personal life is a Muslim. We Muslims need to discuss and face these painful questions. In particular we find often in our societies we have govts that are corrupt and complicit with the west and often there is no organised opposition other than political Islam. We must be careful in turning away from the corrupt that we dont turn to those that want to interpret our religion in a manner that can only be described in an inaccurate manner in particular to this thread in a mysogenic way.

    I must say that most religions if not all are interpreted in a way that leads to abuse of women and minorities

    Painful though this introspection is it is something as men and women of conscience we can not ignore.


    Often when speaking of Islam we end up looking at it historically and its utility as ideology of state or societal control, and not as Islam as a religious experience
    Well almost all communities were / are mysogenic ....some hide it well behind fashion while others do it openly and make it law!
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Express View Post
    The most shame ever on our judiciary system. Hang your heads in shame. Protect our women not humiliate them
    This is the heart of the matter. Protection of women NOT humiliation

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    Re: defencedotpk sold out to "Foreigners" :D

    Quote Originally Posted by bored View Post
    Blame the doer ....Did Islam tell them to do that? No then why is Islam blamed?!
    Many things are justified through Islam. Back in the day, they had slaves forced to have sex. Ok forced sounds bad, lets just say the slaves had no choice of refusal. Many of the sahabas had it. As it is a matter of history there should be no shame in pointing out that the rasool had a few too.

    If you make Islamic law, the law of the land, then sure anybody can take a slave, have sex with them. How do you defend that?

    Yea...when did I say they were bad people? I just said what they did was not right...
    Who cares about what you think? As long as the law of the land gives them equal rights. But in Islamic law would deprive them of their humanity.

    Who decides these situations?
    A judge ruling based upon secular laws. No need for a religious scholar.

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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by safriz View Post
    How do you justify your statement that all those social evils are caused by Islamic laws?
    Social evils are in part caused where free thought is eliminated in favor of radical ideologies. If you make Islamic laws, a radical ideology the state law, the entire state would become radical.

    This is what is happening in Pakistan. Every few months Christian communities are being burned in Pakistan. Every few days Hindu girls are abducted and raped. When the law catches up, a quick nikah with the rape victim solves the problem. Everyone gives mithai to each other, for making a kafir accept the true faith. Everyone happy, except the rape victim.
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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinbad View Post
    This is the heart of the matter. Protection of women NOT humiliation
    Our paradigm is wrong. We talk about protecting women like they are some property. We need to foster a society where if needed they can kick butt.

    If you have to protect them, then someone is out there to abuse them.

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    Re: defencedotpk sold out to "Foreigners" :D

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Many things are justified through Islam. Back in the day, they had slaves forced to have sex. Ok forced sounds bad, lets just say the slaves had no choice of refusal. Many of the sahabas had it. As it is a matter of history there should be no shame in pointing out that the rasool had a few too.
    And your proof is? Yes, back in the day Arabs had slaves...
    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    If you make Islamic law, the law of the land, then sure anybody can take a slave, have sex with them. How do you defend that?
    Can I just ask you 1 question? EVER read the Quran?! But I will answer you anyway:

    Slavery, in one form or the other was prevalent in almost all parts of the world. The Old Testament of the Bible, which describes the ancient tales of Israeli society, is replete with many accounts concerning slavery. It can be seen that the tradition of selling people existed during the time of the patriarch prophet, Abraham, itself. (Genesis 17:13,14). It is the commandment of the Bible that prisoners-of-war are to be enslaved (Deuteronomy 20:10,11). The Bible, which permits the torture of the slave by the master, nevertheless, stresses the point that the slave is not to be killed during the course of torturing. The law which prevailed, in this matter, amongst the Israeli society was that, “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.’’ (Exodus 21:20,21)
    It may be seen that the Quran had adopted five steps for the eradication of slavery.

    1. Created a sense of brotherhood.

    The Quran had, firstly, created a notion that both master and slave were brothers, one to the other, by inculcating an awareness that all men were the creations of the same God and were the children of the same parents. “O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).” (Quran 49:13)

    The Quran has cut apart the very root of all forms of narrow mindedness that arose out of the feelings of superior birth. Indeed, the prophet had taught that righteousness was measured not on the basis of colour, race or wealth, but on the basis of God-consciousness alone. “The Arab has no superiority over the non-Arab or the non-Arab over the Arab; the white over the black or the black over the white except in the matter of God-consciousness.” (Tabari)

    2. Slaves given rights:
    It was in a society in which existed the heinous practice of castrating slaves that the prophet had, in the most unambiguous terms, declared that the master who castrates his slave will, in turn, ‘be castrated by us.’ The slaves were castrated in order that their sexual impulses be destroyed, whereby, they could then be made to work like animals. Islam, which prohibited this practice, particularly instructs that means should be made available for the satisfaction of the sexual instincts of the slave also.Marry those among you who are single, and the virtuous ones among your slaves, male or female: if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah is Ample-giving, and He knoweth all things.” (Quran 24:32)
    Not use them for sex as you said...

    3. more rights ...Furthermore, the Quran prohibited the system of forcing female slaves into prostitution.Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (for emancipation) give them such a deed if ye know any good in them; yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire Chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Quran 24:33) forgiving for the slave...
    “Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good - to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are of kin, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the way-farer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: for Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious.”(Quran 4:36)


    Oh was it better that the slaves were treated as they were back then or is it better they allowed to be married and treated as a wife?

    Of course all this had to be done bit by bit...Just like in current times, try prohibiting an Western mid 20s from drinking...he will rebel like a mad man! Oh my rights oh this and oh that ....

    So Islam took the situation step by step...Instead of suddenly saying no slavery...It took steps by showing slaves are human, give them rights, making freeing slaves as a person who will receive reward... Making freeing slaves a norm...and then finally putting the seal..ABOLISHING THE WHOLE SYSTEM...
    Now that the system is abolished ...I do not even need to defend such a thing...Shows you have never read the Quran with translation...Do that before making yourself sound like a fool....

    BTW, what are you whining about? America still had slaves even in early 19th century!

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Who cares about what you think? As long as the law of the land gives them equal rights. But in Islamic law would deprive them of their humanity.
    where does it say this?! Mind you even in Western society, ONLY few even tolerate homosexuality! YES welcome to your own planet and western civilization of freedom!

    The Williams Institute on Sexual Orientation Law and Public Policy aggregated a number of surveys that examined discrimination experienced by gay and transgender employees, and determined that:
    15-43% of gay and transgender employees have experienced some form of either discrimination and harassment in the workplace;
    8-17% were not hired or fired due to their sexual orientation;
    10-28% were not promoted because they were gay or transgender;
    7-41% were verbally or physically abused or had their workplaces vandalized.


    In the United States, 21 states and the District of Columbia prohibit discrimination based on one’s sexual orientation. Of those states, 15 and the District of Columbia have laws prohibiting discrimination based on gender identity/expression. THAT IS OUT OF 50-51 states!

    http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/le...rkplace-issues

    Different studies show different % but still it is not 0% tolerance...http://www.americanprogress.org/issu...nd-harassment/

    Now what is wrong with such people? EXCEPT those born with a genetic problem, the gays/ Lesbians/ Bisexuals/ Transgender BY CHOICE have made an UN NATURAL CHOICE....Its like giving a thumbs up to Cocaine just because many people choose it!

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    A judge ruling based upon secular laws. No need for a religious scholar.
    And who decides what the judge rules on? Who gives the Judge and which book is the judge given to BASE his rulings on? Who writes the book? WHO decides the laws?

    A panel of people who have NEVER even witnessed someone slap the other let alone write about HOW TO PUNISH A RAPIST? Seriously, for you maybe giving few yrs to a rapist is justice but what about the rape victim WHO HAS TO LIVE WITH IT FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE? What about her? The psychological trauma, the disgust, lack of trust...whose gonna deal with that? The judge who gave few yrs to the rapist?

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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Social evils are in part caused where free thought is eliminated in favor of radical ideologies. If you make Islamic laws, a radical ideology the state law, the entire state would become radical.
    What caused the snipers in America to shoot school children or then why are there rapist even in the West where there is no RADICAL IDEOLOGY??

    Social evil exists because people do not care about others...They are just self indulged in wanting their way be it wrong and trying to get away with it...It exists because SOME people have a twisted way of seeing what is OK...
    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    This is what is happening in Pakistan. Every few months Christian communities are being burned in Pakistan. Every few days Hindu girls are abducted and raped. When the law catches up, a quick nikah with the rape victim solves the problem. Everyone gives mithai to each other, for making a kafir accept the true faith. Everyone happy, except the rape victim.
    Well, THIS IS WHY I said go with the beheading of a rapist...But you want the panel of TOLERANT IR-RADICAL judges to send him to jail...

    What you mentioned above IS NOT ISLAM....so nothing to do with Islamic laws! What you mentioned is CULTURAL! Like you the uneducated Mullahs doing it dont know it is NOT ISLAMIC BUT something THAT HAPPENED during the JAHILAH era!

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    Re: Rape laws in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Our paradigm is wrong. We talk about protecting women like they are some property. We need to foster a society where if needed they can kick butt.

    If you have to protect them, then someone is out there to abuse them.
    We have self proclaimed heros like Altaf Hussain WHO THINK he is doing the migrants a fav by torturing EVERYONE...what sort of kick butt are you referring to?!

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    Re: defencedotpk sold out to "Foreigners" :D

    Quote Originally Posted by bored View Post
    And your proof is? Yes, back in the day Arabs had slaves...
    Funny you ask me if I ever read the Quran, but you don't seem to know all our Umm al Momineens

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya

    You should not deny established facts. PS. There were others, but

    Can I just ask you 1 question? EVER read the Quran?! But I will answer you anyway:
    Yes. You didn't give me much of an answer... So what if slavery was rampant all over the world. So what if some slaves were freed. Many were taken as slaves too. So at best the ideology to learn from it is that you can free some but you can take some slaves too.

    Not use them for sex as you said...
    Slaves were even used for sex at times. Women were captured as bounty after wars. You can't deny facts now, come on!

    Oh was it better that the slaves were treated as they were back then or is it better they allowed to be married and treated as a wife?
    Its nothing to be ashamed of, things were far worse in the rest of the world, sure Islam made it a little bit better.

    Here is where you are wrong. A slave does not have the right to refuse. A wife has the right to choose her to be husband.

    Of course all this had to be done bit by bit...Just like in current times, try prohibiting an Western mid 20s from drinking...he will rebel like a mad man! Oh my rights oh this and oh that ....
    I would understand doing this bit by bit. But the Rasool Allah himself set an example. Do you deny the Sunnah of the Prophet? Once you do it yourself you condone the behavior. Even the people after him carried on the tradition. It is only in modern times where the practice seems to have died on it own. Modern man cannot find himself comfortable enough to follow this aspect of Islam.

    Shows you have never read the Quran with translation...Do that before making yourself sound like a fool....
    Unless you are not reading the same Quran, what are your comments on this ayat?

    And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.
    http://quran.com/4/24

    Mind you even in Western society, ONLY few even tolerate homosexuality!
    Law is increasingly tolerating them. Gays may be fighting wars, they may be your soldiers, they may be working for charity but you talk about tolerating them? They are tolerating you!

    And who decides what the judge rules on? Who gives the Judge and which book is the judge given to BASE his rulings on? Who writes the book? WHO decides the laws?
    Law makers decide it and base it on humane and just values not on 1400 year old ancient concepts.

    A panel of people who have NEVER even witnessed someone slap the other let alone write about HOW TO PUNISH A RAPIST? Seriously, for you maybe giving few yrs to a rapist is justice but what about the rape victim WHO HAS TO LIVE WITH IT FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE? What about her? The psychological trauma, the disgust, lack of trust...whose gonna deal with that? The judge who gave few yrs to the rapist?
    You are talking about giving the rapist more punishment while defending Islamic jurisprudence continuously saving rapists and punishing the rape victims.
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    Re: defencedotpk sold out to "Foreigners" :D

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Funny you ask me if I ever read the Quran, but you don't seem to know all our Umm al Momineens

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya

    You should not deny established facts. PS. There were others, but
    I said YES THEY WERE slaves back then....I wrote a whole ASSAY ON THAT!
    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post

    Yes. You didn't give me much of an answer... So what if slavery was rampant all over the world. So what if some slaves were freed. Many were taken as slaves too. So at best the ideology to learn from it is that you can free some but you can take some slaves too.
    WHERE did it say YOU CAN AND MUST get slaves to be Muslims?! In fact Islam abolished it in steps! Slaves were their culture....Instead of saying THANK GOD it was abolished you want to swim in the past and keep swimming in it?!


    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Slaves were even used for sex at times. Women were captured as bounty after wars. You can't deny facts now, come on!
    Read my whole essay...Looks like you enjoy picking out words like wondering in a garden and picking fruits?!



    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Its nothing to be ashamed of, things were far worse in the rest of the world, sure Islam made it a little bit better.

    Here is where you are wrong. A slave does not have the right to refuse. A wife has the right to choose her to be husband.
    I didnt deny..

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    I would understand doing this bit by bit. But the Rasool Allah himself set an example. Do you deny the Sunnah of the Prophet? Once you do it yourself you condone the behavior. Even the people after him carried on the tradition. It is only in modern times where the practice seems to have died on it own. Modern man cannot find himself comfortable enough to follow this aspect of Islam.
    OMG shows your limited knowledge! There are things Prophet did which were set as an example (Marrying DIFFERENT women - adopted son's wife, widow, aged women, divorcee, young, converts, slave,) and THINGS HE DID AS CULTURE (wearing a turban) and lets not forget THINGS HE DID AS A PROPHET (extra namaaz)....

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Unless you are not reading the same Quran, what are your comments on this ayat?


    http://quran.com/4/24
    And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. So you are allowed married slaves...
    [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.[/QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Law is increasingly tolerating them. Gays may be fighting wars, they may be your soldiers, they may be working for charity but you talk about tolerating them? They are tolerating you!
    I dont go around asking if a person is straight or not...If he is a gay so what can I do about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Law makers decide it and base it on humane and just values not on 1400 year old ancient concepts.
    I asked what is just? Who decides? What if a rapist becomes a law enforcer?! and says no for a rapist to be convicted you need this and that and this.....


    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    You are talking about giving the rapist more punishment while defending Islamic jurisprudence continuously saving rapists and punishing the rape victims.
    Show me WHERE IN THE QURAN does it say in Islam that what the MUSLIMS ARE doing NOW is what ISLAM TAUGHT us and is not what they inherited from their JAHIL CULTURE??

    You know what you didnt read my essay nor my quotes from the Quran...
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    Re: defencedotpk sold out to "Foreigners" :D

    Quote Originally Posted by bored View Post
    I said YES THEY WERE slaves back then....I wrote a whole ASSAY ON THAT!
    WHERE did it say YOU CAN AND MUST get slaves to be Muslims?! In fact Islam abolished it in steps! Slaves were their culture....Instead of saying THANK GOD it was abolished you want to swim in the past and keep swimming in it?!


    Read my whole essay...Looks like you enjoy picking out words like wondering in a garden and picking fruits?!



    I didnt deny..

    OMG shows your limited knowledge! There are things Prophet did which were set as an example (Marrying DIFFERENT women - adopted son's wife, widow, aged women, divorcee, young, converts, slave,) and THINGS HE DID AS CULTURE (wearing a turban) and lets not forget THINGS HE DID AS A PROPHET (extra namaaz)....


    [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.
    I dont go around asking if a person is straight or not...If he is a gay so what can I do about it?

    I asked what is just? Who decides? What if a rapist becomes a law enforcer?! and says no for a rapist to be convicted you need this and that and this.....


    Show me WHERE IN THE QURAN does it say in Islam that what the MUSLIMS ARE doing NOW is what ISLAM TAUGHT us and is not what they inherited from their JAHIL CULTURE??

    You know what you didnt read my essay nor my quotes from the Quran...[/QUOTE]

    Point well made
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    Re: defencedotpk sold out to "Foreigners" :D

    [MENTION=2]Aryan_B[/MENTION] can we have this shifted to a more serious section than Shrink's Couch? Social issues section perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by bored View Post
    I said YES THEY WERE slaves back then....I wrote a whole ASSAY ON THAT!
    We are talking about sex slaves not a court jester or someone to do your laundry.

    WHERE did it say YOU CAN AND MUST get slaves to be Muslims?!
    Not MUST, but definitely CAN. If the Sunnah of the Prophet is to keep a slave for sex, then surely this permission extends to all people living under Islamic law.

    In fact Islam abolished it in steps!
    Did the Prophet abolish it in steps?

    Slaves were their culture....Instead of saying THANK GOD it was abolished you want to swim in the past and keep swimming in it?!
    We are not talking about culture we are talking about religion. If slaves for sex is mentioned in the Quran, if the Prophet's Sunnah also acknowledges it, it is part of your deen. End of story. If you make Islamic law the law of the land you must make this permissible as well.

    OMG shows your limited knowledge! There are things Prophet did which were set as an example (Marrying DIFFERENT women - adopted son's wife, widow, aged women, divorcee, young, converts, slave,) and THINGS HE DID AS CULTURE (wearing a turban) and lets not forget THINGS HE DID AS A PROPHET (extra namaaz)....[/QUOTE]
    Yeah so sex with slaves is permissible right?


    [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.
    Ok so if you force a slave into sex and then compensate the slave, its all fine? Will you make this Islamic law the law of the land?

    See your problem is when you open up the finer things of Islamic law, just like any other religious law, you yourself are not liking it. You are arguing with me how this is not part of the law. This is. Quran says it is. The Sunnah says it is. Islam is Quran and Sunnah. You just don't like it, not all of it.

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    Re: defencedotpk sold out to "Foreigners" :D

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    [MENTION=2]Aryan_B[/MENTION] can we have this shifted to a more serious section than Shrink's Couch? Social issues section perhaps?


    We are talking about sex slaves not a court jester or someone to do your laundry.
    Do you mean to say back then there were SLAVES EXCLUSIVELY for sex? Please bring forwards your proof so far all you have done is talk not a single reference!



    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Not MUST, but definitely CAN. If the Sunnah of the Prophet is to keep a slave for sex, then surely this permission extends to all people living under Islamic law.
    You see the problem with you is you do not read the Quran with translation...The whole issue about the salves should NOT BE in question as the WHOLE SYSTEM was abolished! So any Ayat that was revealed before and during that period was for then....IF there is an ayat that came AFTER the system was abolished, bring it forward and then I can see where you are going...For now you just seem to be hitting randomly in a hope to hit something ...

    Following is a brilliant example of the language of the Quran and how people misunderstand it simply because they are too lazy to research on the topic:

    Point 1: Does the Quran instruct Muslims to kill Non-Muslims?
    Significance of the definite article "Al" (i.e., "the")
    A friend of mine once told me that the Quran instructs Muslims to kill all Infidels. I agreed with him that violent interpretations of the Quran exist and permeate many of our Islamic books. My friend then quoted the following 3 verses to prove his point.

    Quran: {The infidels are your sworn enemies Sura 4:101}
    Quran {Prophet, make war on the infidels Sura 66: 9}
    Quran {Never be a helper to the disbelievers Sura 28:86}
    I thanked my friend for making this point as well as indicating these verses, and then responded as follows:

    Comments:
    Clearly, the above verses can incite much animosity and subsequent violence vis-a-vis all non-Muslims. Accepted literally - and uncritically - these verses lend themselves to the unjust persecution of otherwise innocent people, whose only crime is being non-Muslim. However, a pivotal matter of linguistic importance is often overlooked: the significance and usage of the definite article, "al" (i.e., "the"), which precedes the various disparaging Arabic words - kafirun, mushrikun - that describe non-believers in the Quran and which are often translated as "non-believers," "infidels," "idolaters," or "polytheists." Furthermore, in Arabic, the definite article is physically attached to the word it describes.

    See below:

    Quran: {The infidels are your sworn enemies Sura 4:101}
    Quran {Prophet, make war on the infidels Sura 66: 9
    Quran {Never be a helper to the disbelievers Sura 28:86}
    The exact Arabic expression in these verses - indeed, in every verse that talks of the non-believer - is "Al-Kaferrin" or "Al-la-dhina Kafaru." The use of "Al-" or "Al-la-dhina"limits the verse (and thus commandment) to 1) a specific time and place in history and 2) a specific group of people who were obstacles to the establishment of Islam in its nascent phase. It is these two factors that caused these verses to be revealed. Had the intentions of the Quran been to extend the application of these verses in perpetuity, it would have used the expression "Man Kafar," rather than "Al-Kafereen" or "Al-La-dhina Kafaru". The former, "Man Kafar," literally means any one who does not believe in God; while the latter, "Al-Kafereen," - the infidels - denotes a specific group of people: they who fought Prophet Mohamed in the early stages of Islam.

    Moreover, the overriding principle which must ultimately guide our understanding of these verses is the constant Quranic reminder that good Muslims do not initiate violence against others so long as the latter do not provoke hostilities.

    Quran 2:190 Fight in the cause of God those who start fighting you, but do not transgress limits (or start the attack); for God loveth not transgressors.

    Indeed, according to other verses, even if a Muslim deemed someone an infidel, according to the Quran, he is still obligated to:

    1. Behave with courtesy :
    Consider, for instance, the following verse, which is supposed to instruct Muslims as to how they should deal with non-Muslims in the midst of hostilities (such as war): 9:6 And if any of the Idolatries (who are fighting you) seeks thy protection, grant him protection, so that he might [be able to] hear the word of God [from thee]; and thereupon convey him to a place where he can feel secure:
    If Muslims are to behave with such clemency and magnanimity vis-a-vis the infidel during times of war and conflict, how much more should be expected of their interactions with non-Muslims during times of peace?

    2. Respect his freedom of choice to be a "Disbeliever" - as this is a right bestowed upon humanity by God:
    Quran 18:29 proclaims, "The truth is from your Lord": it is the free will of any person to believe (in God) or to be an Infidel (Un believer).

    3. Even if a Muslim should be convinced that someone is a non-believer, still he must accept that his fate is in the hands of God alone, since no one human can condemn another - this must be left to the judgment of God.
    Quran 88:25-26 for behold, unto (ONLY) Us (means God) will be their return, Then it will be for (ONLY) Us to Judge (humans).
    22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians (can mean an ancient religion or people with no specific religion), Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God (alone) is witness of all things.

    The significance of the definite article ("al") or the substantive pronoun ("al-la dhina") which confines the aforementioned verses to a specific time and place - that is, the past, history - as well as against a specific people (i.e., the polytheists of the Arabian peninsula), is also key to understanding those many other verses that are often cited to incite violence against non-Muslims:
    1- The infidels are your sworn enemies Sura 4:101
    2- Make war on The infidels who dwell around you Sura 9:123
    3- When you meet The Infidels in the battlefield, strike off their heads Sura 47:4
    4- Mohamed is Alla's apostale. Those who follow him are ruthless to The infidels Sura 48:29
    5- Prophet, make war on The infidels Sura 66: 9
    6- Never be a helper to The disbelievers Sura 28:86
    7- Kill The disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191)
    8- 9:29 [And] fight against those (Al-La-Zina) who - despite having been vouchsafed revelation [aforetime] [40] -do not [truly] believe either in God or the Last Day, and do not consider forbidden that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, [41] and do not follow the religion of truth [which God has enjoined upon them] [42] till they [agree to] pay the exemption tax with a willing hand, after having been humbled [in war]. [43]
    9- 47:4 Therefore, when you meet The infidels (unbelievers), [4] smite their necks until you overcome them fully, and then tighten their bonds; [5] but thereafter [set them free,] either by an act of grace or against ransom, so that the burden of war may be lifted: [6]
    http://www.islamforpeace.org/quran.html

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Did the Prophet abolish it in steps?
    What was my post about?!

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    We are not talking about culture we are talking about religion. If slaves for sex is mentioned in the Quran, if the Prophet's Sunnah also acknowledges it, it is part of your deen. End of story. If you make Islamic law the law of the land you must make this permissible as well.
    What the Prophet did NOT make Obligatory to you who are you to say such things?! The prophet ONLY drank water, does this make pepsi haram? He ONLY rode on a camel can we not drive cars? Seriously somethings were done at a certain period of time and IF there is an ayat abolishing it and NO AYAT mentioning any slavery after that...How can you go on and on with such twisted thinking?!
    Slavery was widely practiced in pre-Islamic Arabia, as well as in the rest of the ancient and early medieval world.
    Slavery was still alive in America in the 19th century!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    Ok so if you force a slave into sex and then compensate the slave, its all fine? Will you make this Islamic law the law of the land?
    Show me from the Quran where it says ANYTHING of what you said!
    A careful study of the text reveals that the Qur’an initiates a gradual process of improvement in status of those in bondage and culminating in the very abolition of this institution. The process started with:

    “…ye…may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands posses….wed them with the leave of their families, and give them their dower…”[4:25]

    This conferred upon servant girls all the rights and privileges of a wife. Verse 36 of Sura 4 brought another big change in the status of slaves by enforcing the obligation to do good to one’s parents and in the same breath, also to servants:

    “…do ‘Ihsan’ (goodness) to parents …and (to) what your right hands posses.”[4:36]


    verse 60 of Sura 9 exhorts Believers to give monetary help to those in bondage in order to alleviate their economic status:


    “Alms are for…those in Bondage..”[9:60]

    Verses 2:177,4:29,5:89 etc make another quantum change in this matter by urging the believers to free those in the shackles of slavery:


    “…But it is righteousness…to spend of your substance out of love for Him…for the ransom of slaves..”[2:177]

    “And whoever kills a believer by mistake, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave..”[4:92]

    “He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation…give a slave his freedom..”[5:89]

    According to Quran if a slave asks for his freedom ,the believer is left for no other choice but to accede to his request and is also required to help him with funds in order to rehabilitate him as a free man:


    “And if any of your slaves ask you for a deed in writing (for emancipation) give them such a deed; If ye knew any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you…”[24:33]
    Quote Originally Posted by John Mcclane View Post
    See your problem is when you open up the finer things of Islamic law, just like any other religious law, you yourself are not liking it. You are arguing with me how this is not part of the law. This is. Quran says it is. The Sunnah says it is. Islam is Quran and Sunnah. You just don't like it, not all of it.
    I am asking you for the ayats which are making you say such things and instead of providing them you are just throwing assumptions! I am debating as you quoted me and asked me questions...When I answer suddenly it is because I do not like the law or whatever your mentality perceives ?!
    The Following User Says Thank You to bored For This Useful Post: Express


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