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  1. #41
    Elite Member sparkling's Avatar
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    You were making sense then

    Are you talking about Pakistan? If yes, What are Pakistan's internal problems?
    Be gentle on the newbie!
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahsan Bin Tufail View Post
    Very strong deviation from the teachings of Quran and Sunnah, lies, Rampant corruption, illiteracy, unemployment etc. Yes, as far as military power is concerned, I think if we can develop an ICBM than that would be sufficient to end foreign intervention in our internal affairs at least for a limited time.

    I don't mean to offend you, but you have not mentioned the economy at all, is this of concern?? is the Economy related to Quran? if so, how? Pakistan remains agrarian, Does Quran offer Pakistanis a method to move past or is the Quran silent on the matter or is that since the Quran is a product associated with the context of desert trading oasis, that perhaps Pakistan's salvation may be in recreating that Utopia?

    ICBMs you say - but that takes money and trained scientists and an educated populace that can make informed decisions - and without an economy, that's a bit distant - or have you another prescription

  3. #43
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    I don't mean to offend you, but you have not mentioned the economy at all, is this of concern?? is the Economy related to Quran? if so, how? Pakistan remains agrarian, Does Quran offer Pakistanis a method to move past or is the Quran silent on the matter or is that since the Quran is a product associated with the context of desert trading oasis, that perhaps Pakistan's salvation may be in recreating that Utopia?

    ICBMs you say - but that takes money and trained scientists and an educated populace that can make informed decisions - and without an economy, that's a bit distant - or have you another prescription
    I am not a religious scholar representing Islam on this forum but I think that there is enough room for debate about the economic model that will fit the true meaning of the obedience of Almighty Allah in present times. Agricultural products, industrial products, software products all can be considered well within the domain of Islamic model of trade and economics.

    As far as ICBMs are concerned, if we can develop these, than undoubtedly we can protect these precious military assets to counter any offensive from outside World.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahsan Bin Tufail View Post
    I am not a religious scholar representing Islam on this forum but I think that there is enough room for debate about the economic model that will fit the true meaning of the obedience of Almighty Allah in present times. Agricultural products, industrial products, software products all can be considered well within the domain of Islamic model of trade and economics.

    .
    You are much too modest.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    National Security Committee to meet over India-Pakistan border firing


    ISLAMABAD: The federal government has decided to convene a meeting of the National Security Committee (NSC) in the wake of ongoing firing at the Line of Control (LoC) and the working boundary dividing Pakistan and India.

    The meeting is scheduled to be held at 10 am Friday, October 10.

    “The committee is expected to meet this week in Islamabad with Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in the chair," a top government official told Dawn on Wednesday.

    Along with the top military leadership, the PM’s adviser on Foreign Affairs and National Security Sartaj Aziz, Minister for Defence Khawaja Asif, Interior Minister Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan, Finance Minister Ishaq Dar and Information Minister Pervez Rashid will attend the meeting on Friday.

    Also read: Three killed in firing along India-Pakistan border

    The military leadership will take the committee into confidence over the latest situation on the Line of Control and the working boundary, and a joint strategy would be adopted which may give a strong message to India, said the sources.

    The meeting follows a rise in tensions across the Pakistan-India border, with as many as 10 civilians killed and over a dozen injured in the past three days in cross-border firing on both sides of the border.

    An intense bout of firing by Indian troops continued near Sialkot late Tuesday, killing at least three Pakistani civilians and damaging buildings and houses located along the working boundary.
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    We must retalliate and hit them hard. Don't let Modi or Nawaz get away with this.
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    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    We should protect our national interests at any cost. We need not worry about the resistance offered by India or USA, they can't do anything. We have to counter our internal weaknesses as soon as possible.
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahsan Bin Tufail View Post
    We should protect our national interests at any cost. We need not worry about the resistance offered by India or USA, they can't do anything. We have to counter our internal weaknesses as soon as possible.
    too many traitors internally has always been Pakistan problem
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Wattan View Post
    too many traitors internally has always been Pakistan problem
    Not Pakistan but Muslim Problem. Don't forget burning of so-called Masjid e Zarar. There is no leniency for traitors. Don't forget that even Allah put down a surah named Tauba in his Holy book which doesn't start with Bismillah. It's enough of this B.S. We need to act strongly to emerge as a great power but act with caution as emotions will do harm than good.

  10. #50
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    Hidden charms of India-Pakistan pirouette

    By now, US President Barack Obama would know South Asian folks are strange people. He thought he had “a very positive conversation” with the visiting Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the White House just the other day regarding India-Pakistan dialogue.

    Modi sounded genuinely “interested in developing and pushing forward with his Pakistani counterpart Nawaz Sharif.” (I am quoting from White House readout.)

    The Kashmir issue didn’t come up, but “it was a very strong and positive conversation” that Obama had with Modi “about the potential that is inherent” in India-Pakistan dialogue.

    Obama came away convinced that “there’s a great deal of interest” on Modi’s part “to see that the relationship (between India and Pakistan) grow and move in the right direction”.

    In fact, Modi was so hopeful of prospects ahead that he shared with Obama his interest to promote democracy in Pakistan. Modi expressed “a very strong desire to take actions that support and strengthen democratic institutions” in Pakistan.

    And now comes the news from Delhi hardly a week later that Modi’s deputy, India’s interior minister Rajnath Singh has warned Pakistan that there is a new reality in India, which it should be mindful of — “the situation in India has changed,” as he ominously put it.

    Unsurprisingly, the US state department spokesperson’s reaction to the latest spurt of violence on the India-Pakistan border has been one of great wariness — as if it is all very surreal. To be sure, Jen Psaki wouldn’t take sides between Delhi and Islamabad.

    In fact, she wouldn’t even hazard a narrative as to what’s actually happening out there. She merely said Washington will “continue to encourage” the two capitals “to engage in further dialogue to address these issues.”

    Quite obviously, no matter what Modi told Obama, his thinking on dialogue with Pakistan cannot be advanced. Three reasons can be attributed here. One, it’s election time in India — Maharashtra and J&K in the coming months. An animated suspension of India-Pakistan dialogue helps the ruling party to build up stirring rhetoric to galvanize the Hindu nationalist vote bank.

    Two, there is restiveness among the hardcore Hindu nationalists that the Modi government is not being sufficiently “tough” toward Pakistan. In their conception, Modi is, after all, the Iron Man and he needs to live up to that image.

    Obviously, this is not an appropriate moment for the Modi government to be seen as “weak” and conciliatory and engaged in talks with Pakistan. To compound matters, the opposition Congress Party is demanding that Modi lives up to his reputation.

    Three, and, perhaps, most important, the ruling party needs to reconcile divergent opinions within its own camp, and some of it could also be related to the unfinished business of Modi’s political consolidation in Delhi as an ‘outsider’. Given the dialectic, an initiative toward Pakistan on Modi’s part becomes unsustainable.

    All in all, the inherent danger here is that it is difficult for politicians to always calibrate the tensions on the border to suit their rhetoric. At some point, the “kinetics”, as the American call it, would take over and when (or if) that happens, Modi will have to take the call.

    Meanwhile, the best hope is that the Pakistani leadership understands Modi’s compulsions and manages to effectively rein in the hardline elements in Pakistan from queering the pitch. The sad part, of course, is that there might be ‘collateral damage’ on both sides — civilian casualties.
    But then, the good part is that the Indian military accepts civilian supremacy, while on the other hand, the Pakistani army also has its hands full in Waziristan and cannot risk the opening of a second front on the eastern border with India.


    By M K Bhadrakumar

    http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakuma...tan-pirouette/

  11. #51
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    Quote Originally Posted by greencold View Post

    Meanwhile, the best hope is that the Pakistani leadership understands Modi’s compulsions and manages to effectively rein in the hardline elements in Pakistan from queering the pitch. The sad part, of course, is that there might be ‘collateral damage’ on both sides — civilian casualties.
    But then, the good part is that the Indian military accepts civilian supremacy, while on the other hand, the Pakistani army also has its hands full in Waziristan and cannot risk the opening of a second front on the eastern border with India.


    By M K Bhadrakumar

    http://blogs.rediff.com/mkbhadrakuma...tan-pirouette/
    Of course the Indian are good guys and it is clear to all things have changed in India - we had on another thread said "steady as she goes" but it is clear the Pakistani has blinked - The Pakistani have convened what the call their "National Security Council", it is interesting to note that no one on that council actually has any security or military or strategic analysis experience - the armed forces have been called to give a briefing and get an earful -- this one goes to Modi and the Indians.

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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    We must retalliate and hit them hard. Don't let Modi or Nawaz get away with this.
    Pakistan will give as good as it takes from India. That's for sure.

  13. #53
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    Reviewing Sharif’s India choices


    Mosharraf Zaidi
    Saturday, October 11, 2014


    Eid season may be over, but if you are in the business of identifying incompetence in how the Pakistani state is run, every day is Christmas. So while the PTI may eventually run out of steam, as long as Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif remains in office, reasonable people will never run out of reasons to criticise the PM.

    Perhaps one way to analyse the prime minister’s performance, in the context of our renewed border conflict with India, is to take stock of his choice of people. Indeed, given the extreme personalisation of management that is the hallmark of all our major political power houses, especially the House of Ittefaq, the House of Bhutto, and the House in Bani Gala, how our leaders choose their people is incredibly important.

    An improved relationship with India was one of PM Sharif’s vital policy objectives. The choice of people he made in foreign policy, especially with regards to India should have reflected the importance of the issue to him. Did it?

    Quite wisely, he chose Sartaj Aziz as his National Security Advisor, even though Sartaj Sahib would have made an excellent president, and by all accounts he expected to have that office. He chose Tariq Fatemi as his man at the Foreign Office. Though an exceptional and thorough gentleman, Fatemi Sahib is no dove on India, and more importantly a hawk on the US.

    Right away, this meant that the PM created the space for others to lead the Pakistan-US relationship. Not surprisingly, that space was taken up by Ishaq Dar – which confirmed two things. First, that where there are vacuums, you can always trust family members to take up a lot of space. Second, that Pakistan’s principal interest in the US is fiscal and current, ie the US is our deficit reduction strategy.

    In any case, beyond the big-ticket appointments,
    the PM then made some truly startling choices. He began by appointing the eighty-year old Shahryar Khan as his special envoy for backchannel talks with India. How do two octogenarians on critical assignments help counter the ‘youth’ push from his principal political opponent? They don’t. But that is hardly the worst part. Shahryar Khan Sahib is not among people that the military establishment sees as credible interlocutors for Pakistan. By choosing him, the PM was either deliberately, or mistakenly sending a signal to the GHQ.

    The signal was a bad one. Even worse was the fact that this appointment signalled the end of Riaz Mohammad Khan’s very successful tenure as the lead on backchannel diplomacy with India. PM Sharif didn’t need to replace the incumbent, and if he did, should have chosen more carefully. Instead, he not only got rid of a dependable interlocutor, but in the process, burnt valuable political capital with the khakis.

    It didn’t stop there. The high commissioner to New Delhi at the time of the elections was former foreign secretary Salman Bashir. Bashir was a safe pair of hands at a sensitive time, and should have been retained, despite being on contract. Instead, the PM chose to replace him. The process of his replacement was so utterly mismanaged that only the good graces of those involved have kept the story from becoming a bigger one than it was.


    Suffice it to say, Pakistan is lucky that it has an oversupply of competent officers like Abdul Basit and Aizaz Chaudhary. If Ambassador Ibne Abbas ever writes a book, it will be an embarrassing one. The total and utter mess PM Sharif made of the various appointments at the Foreign Office speaks to his own limitations, rather than the quality of any of the officers. It is a sordid story, but one that represents a major pattern in this, PM Sharif’s third attempt at running a country.

    To add to all this, the PM has not backed up his rhetoric of trade with India with action. He was forced to upgrade Gujranwala MNA Khurram Dastgir Khan from state minister to federal minister, because like most Indians, Manmohan Singh’s commerce minister, Anand Sharma, was protocol-conscious and refused to deal with a junior minister. When Dastgir and Sharma managed to put together a deal that seemed like a winner, PM Sharif not only failed to ensure that the process had the requisite backing here at home, but also failed to manage the narrative that was emerging from the process.

    Instead of being a moment of success, the trade deal fell through at the last minute, and became an embarrassment. Was it because of reservations within the military, or because Narendra Modi’s people signalled a discomfort with Pakistan ‘rewarding’ a lame duck Manmohan Singh with a breakthrough, or because the Indian Election Commission may have objected? We don’t know.

    But worst of all, PM Sharif said not a word about it, and did nothing to establish his version of the story. For all we know, maybe the PM doesn’t know either. Perhaps in a bitter twist to all this, PM Modi chose to appoint only a junior minister for commerce in his new cabinet. Will Pakistan make an issue of protocol with Ghulam Dastgir Khan as India did with Anand Sharma? With PM Sharif, we never quite know.

    Meanwhile, tensions on the working boundary and across the Line of Control with India have been rising steadily since January 2013. Violations of the ceasefire are a tenuous game of blame on either side, but the larger question – given the track record of PM Sharif – is whether he is aware of the extreme right-wing orientation of PM Modi, and the resulting dynamic in India’s mainstream. Does he have the patience, interest, intellect and willingness to think deeply and seriously about how Pakistan will weather the storm of an onslaught of Indian propaganda and shelling? It doesn’t look great.

    Luckily, it is never, ever too late to be redeemed. Here is a short list of immediate things PM Sharif could do to reassert his authority over the situation and recover the stature that is due to this great country’s prime minister. Most of this is about building confidence, across institutions, across individuals, and most importantly across the border, with India. Building confidence is not always about making concessions. Sometimes, it is about demonstrating competence so that the other party knows it is dealing with a serious actor.

    First, PM Sharif needs to come out of Friday’s National Security Council meeting with a clear and decisive list of to-do items in terms of resolving the flare up with India. Second, he must ensure that the COAS, JCSC, CGS, DGMO and DGI are all on-board that list of to-do items. Third, he must take the leaders of all allied and opposing political parties, especially the PTI, on board.

    No Pakistani leader will try to score political points on an issue of national security. If they do, they will be exposed for being undignified opportunists – therefore it is a win-win situation. Fourth, the PM must find a new special envoy/backchannel person for India. If he prefers a former bureaucrat, he may consider bringing back Riaz M Khan, or bringing in an accomplished man of the stature of Ashraf Jahangir Qazi.

    If he prefers a politician, he could call up could bury the hatchet with Mushahid Hussain and ask him to serve the nation. He could go with others too, but his criteria should not be restricted to personal loyalty. It must include vitality, competence, and credibility at the GHQ and across the political spectrum. ‘Sticking it to the khakis’ was a poor governing strategy to begin with. It is downright insane in the current climate.


    Perhaps most of all, PM Sharif needs a major cleansing of the cabinet and the PM Office as part of a reboot of his management philosophy. Ishaq Dar is a decent man, but is desperately overworked. Fawad Ahmad Fawad is a human dynamo, and he too is being dramatically overworked.

    For the sake of the health of his closest advisers and companions, and for the sake of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, PM Sharif needs to allow the government to function as a modern 21st century state, not a medieval family estate
    .

    The writer is an analyst and commentator.

    www.mosharrafzaidi.com

  14. #54
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    Re: Pakistan - India relations

    India has acted like a petulant child when dealing with Pakistan. They try to go to the US and other Western nations to declare Pakistan a terrorist state, to isolate Pakistan, but they have failed to do so. Pakistan is strategically more important to the US than India is. Pakistan holds an important place in the Muslim and Arab world, and the Arab world is hugely important to the US. It also wants to keep Pakistan away from China, just like it wants to prop up India against China. India gives the US no strategic advantage globally.

  15. #55
    Elite Member sparkling's Avatar
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    Pakistan-India peace: A good idea that nobody wants

    Peace is a good idea because the Quaid believed it so. Congratulating Rajagopalacharia on ascending the office of Governor General of India, Muhammad Ali Jinnah had expressed his desire for “real friendship between the two dominions”.

    Gandhi, never the one to be outdone in matters of conciliation, had taken it a step further. K.C. Yadav quoted Gandhi as having said in divided India:

    Indians and Pakistanis are brothers who have separated.
    Let them live in different homes and continue to remain brothers.

    It makes economic sense too.

    Currently, marked at 2.4 billion dollars, the trade worth between the two countries, according to the Jinnah Institute research, has a potential of growing more than 10 to 20 times the current value.

    That will be further consolidated by the vanishing of informal trade flows via Dubai, resulting in a decrease in prices of commodities; and transit access to Afghanistan and Central Asia via Pakistan to India, and to Nepal, Bhutan and Bangladesh via India to Pakistan.

    It is indispensable for the security and strategic paradigms as well. If the two nations were to look beyond their differences and establish a friendly relationship, the major threats for either one would cease to be threats.

    That should allow the two countries to focus inwards, enabling Pakistan to deal better with the Talibans slowly permeating its metropolises, as well as empowering India to extirpate its own terrorist organisations, such as the Naxalites and its many offshoots.

    Peace would allow better appreciation of reason to reign in the foreign policy of the two republics.

    Until now, the foreign policies of the two countries have been spurred by the necessity to assume a pugnacious façade, and on the premise of ‘the enemy of the enemy being one's friend’.

    When peace prevails, the two can set parameters that actually matter for progress as the bedrock to establishing relationships with a foreign country.

    And lastly, it is good for the people of the two states – not just for the millions who have relatives or friends across the border, but also the general public.

    The prospects of cultural exchanges, the learning opportunities, and the symbiosis that may result as a consequence of collaborative efforts to mitigate collective malaises, such as poverty and illiteracy, as well as some regrettable traditions.

    Unfortunately, it is a good idea that nobody wants. There are few buyers and even fewer sellers of it.

    The politicians:

    The politicians of the two countries appear to not want it because war is a good rallying point.

    It is an even better attention shifter. If the polls are close, raise the Pakistan-India issue, and some sympathy is sure to be won. If things at home don’t look quite as desired, shift focus to the borders. Or even if the government feels threatened anyhow there is always the stories from the Line of Control to divert the frustration towards.

    Unlike America, we need not create enemies. History warrants that the threats are more palpable than perceived. Thus, people fall for the rhetoric of warmongers much more readily.

    The armies:

    The degree of the desire for peace in the two armies is also hard to assess what with their bread and butter linked to an ever-present enemy.

    India spends more than 47 billion dollars on its military and Pakistan does close to 7 billion – which is more than 2.5 per cent of the GDP for either country respectively. India has to feed a 4.7 million large active and reserve force, as Pakistan has to a 1.4 million. Then, there is the spending on the nuclear arsenal and the general weaponry.

    Together with these comes the influence the two armies enjoy, and the respect and prestige that comes with the job.

    Explore: Sound byte: ‘India doesn’t allow UN observers near LoC’

    If peace were to sustain, the need to have such large armies, and the associated costs of placing them at borders (more than half the total force for either country is deputed to protect the line of control) would become redundant.

    The media:

    The people are the victim of propaganda; the media, a hostage to popular public opinion.

    It is a never-ending rut where the second suckles off the first and then feeds it right back to the first. War and strife are a selling story, which brings ratings.

    To the people, it is personal; the distrust stemming from years of posturing and mischief from either side, the distorted narratives history books teach to either folk, and the tumescent egos that we have inherited ensure the people are too piqued to think properly.

    The animosity, therefore, perpetuates.

    Mature nations of the world may have learned to live with their differences, but the ideals of forbearance are not for us.

    We cannot move past the past. We cannot look beyond the belligerence.

    The big picture is not for us.

    How do we ever achieve peace in the region then, especially when no stakeholders want it?

    Where do we start?

    Doves would have to take charge. They would have to withstand criticism from all ends. They would have to endure the storm of vitriol that the hawks would spew.

    They would have to be vigorously proactive, and for both the nations.

    http://www.dawn.com/news/1138137/pak...t-nobody-wants
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    Re: Pakistan-India peace: A good idea that nobody wants

    I want peace between both countries and im not a peace loving person.
    Most people on both sides want peace,just have a look at this forum,we have members from both sides interacting with each other in a respectful/peaceful manner,so why not the countries?
    I dont want to discuss about who is right or wrong,we need to find ways to make peace between both countries which will help all the surounding countries economies and peaceful future.
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    Re: Pakistan-India peace: A good idea that nobody wants

    Quote Originally Posted by T-123456 View Post
    I want peace between both countries and im not a peace loving person.
    Most people on both sides want peace,just have a look at this forum,we have members from both sides interacting with each other in a respectful/peaceful manner,so why not the countries?
    I dont want to discuss about who is right or wrong,we need to find ways to make peace between both countries which will help all the surounding countries economies and peaceful future.
    Nice post bro. I don't want another Indian or Pakistani harmed in this conflict
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  18. #58
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    Re: Pakistan-India peace: A good idea that nobody wants

    The reason why both nations are under developed and not moving forwards. Both nations would do miracles if they could concentrate on their economies. Resolve this shyt and move on.

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    Re: Pakistan-India peace: A good idea that nobody wants

    Quote Originally Posted by Fassi View Post
    Nice post bro. I don't want another Indian or Pakistani harmed in this conflict
    stop making this cute statements, ou can't live without kashmir so there will be conflict and people will get hurt.peace will prevail if only both nations accept current boundry and move on.
    *Be able to defend your arguments in a rational way. Otherwise, all you have is an opinion.
    Marilyn vos Savant

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    Re: Pakistan-India peace: A good idea that nobody wants

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnostic_Indian View Post
    stop making this cute statements, ou can't live without kashmir so there will be conflict and people will get hurt.peace will prevail if only both nations accept current boundry and move on.
    Learn to spell before attempting to throw insults bro.
    Much can be said about the nations flag you fly. Kashmiri hate Indians occupying their land. Let them decide who they want to be governed. Forced occupation is futile. The people will never submit to Indian occupation. Doesn't matter what Pakistan says or does. Now get over it and move on to you too.
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