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Thread: Indian Admiral Admits India beheaded Pakistani Soldiers

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    Indian Admiral Admits India beheaded Pakistani Soldiers

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    On the latest edition, (telecast a few hours ago, on the evening of the 15th of January, 2013) of ‘The Buck Stops Here’, (a flagship news show on NDTV anchored by Barkha Dutt) – ‘India-Pakistan:Another Tipping Point‘, Admiral (Retd.) Ramdas, former chief of the Indian Navy said he knew that Indian forces have beheaded Pakistani soldiers in the past. Gen. (Retd.) V.P. Malik, former chief of the Indian Army contradicted him, and said this had never happened. Barkha Dutt was silent on this matter.

    Below is a summary of some highlights of the discussion.

    Around 21:15 minutes into the programme, Admiral Ramdas says, “Beheading of Troops has been going on from both sides has been for some time, I mean there is evidence of this…”

    Barkha Dutt, eager to change the subject, nervously interjects and says ‘I want you to comment, Sir, on Sporting and Cultural ties, because that is what has been hit today…’. Why is she so anxious to change the subject? Is it because Admiral Ramdas is clearly speaking about something she personally does not want spoken about?

    Then, a little later, Ms. Dutt asks Gen. Malik to speak, she also asks him to talk whether ‘Sporting and Cultural Ties should become the fall-guy’.

    Gen. V.P. Malik says (around 24:40 minutes into the program), “…And I don’t agree with Admiral (Ram) Das that both sides have been doing this, I would like to see anybody give me one instance where this kind of inhuman act has been done by the Indian army… I know that with great respect, we not only buried their bodies with great respect…we returned any body that they asked for.”

    Barkha Dutt knows what Admiral Ramdas was talking about. As has been pointed out before on Kafila, she has written about it (the decapitation of Pakistani soldiers by the Indian army during the Kargil conflict in the summer of 1999) herself in Himal magazine (June, 2001).

    I had to look three times to make sure I was seeing right. Balanced on one knee, in a tiny alley behind the army’s administrative offices, I was peering through a hole in a corrugated tin sheet. At first glance, all I could see were some leaves. I looked harder and amidst all the green, there was a hint of black—it looked like a moustache. “Look again,” said the army colonel, in a tone that betrayed suppressed excitement. This time, I finally saw.

    It was a head, the disembodied face of a slain soldier nailed onto a tree. “The boys got it as a gift for the brigade,” said the colonel, softly, but proudly. [Archived at The Hoot]

    So that is an instance where ‘this kind of inhuman act’ did happen. So why did she not say so to Gen. Malik. She is not ‘anybody’, she was there, and this is an issue that is being discussed on a show that she is anchoring. How long can it be before she gets called out for the gross irresponsibility of her reticence on this very crucial matter. Was she lying in 2001, or, is she concealing the truth now?

    But the buck, doesn’t stop here.

    Then, a BJP Politician and spokesman for his party, Ravi Shankar Prasad is asked by Barkha Dutt about the NDA’s record on India-Pakistan relations. She mentions Vajpayee as the architect of the India Pakistan Peace Process , Kargil, Parliament Attack, Hijacking of IC 814, Historic Ceasefire of 2003 etc.

    Ravi Shankar Prasad begins, not by immediately addressing Barkha Dutt’s question, but by contradicting Admiral Ramdas. Around 26:39 minutes into the program, Ravi Shankar Prasad says – “…Mr. Ramdas has been a distinguished Naval chief, but for him to make a comment that even Indian forces have been beheading, I am happy Gen. Malik contradicted him very conclusively, Admiral Ramdas you need to understand that Pakistani people will lap up your comment, and seek to condemn Indian army in no uncertain terms, I am seeing that happening, for heavens sake don’t make these sweeping comments.”

    “Don’t call on Heaven, Mr. Prasad” (Admiral Ramdas says, attempting to interject) but Barkha Dutt doesn’t let him speak. Once again, she does not contradict, question or challenge Ravi Shankar Prasad. Her evasion in this matter, at this point, when it has popped up on her program for the third time now, is a truly sweeping statement.

    Then, Barkha Dutt moves on to Congress spokesman, Avishek Manu Singhvi, and other matters, and other panelists, Ashutosh Varshney and Leela Ponnappa, the question that Admiral Ramdas raised is forgotten, but it lingers, silent, and sullen, like the ghost of a beheaded soldier in the studio.

    At the end of the programme, Shahvar Ali Khan, a musician from Lahore, Pakistan says “All the peace loving people of Pakistan are with the grief of the people of India.” He hopes that the present situation will not affect cultural and social ties.

    Ravi Shankar Prasad says that he loves Pakistani Ghazal songs, but says artists, sportsmen and people who want peace are “fringe players”.

    Then, Barkha Dutt asks Admiral Ramdas for a comment. He says, “If for so many years things have gone wrong, the fault lies not with sportsmen and artists, why punish them for what why have not done?”

    Who makes the constituency of peace a fringe, and who makes the dogs of war, the people Shahvar Ali Khan calls the ‘hate-mongers’, on either side of the LOC, occupy the centre-stage, again and again?

    If an important television journalist like Barkha Dutt talks about the fact that both armies have committed acts of savagery, which, I repeat, she says she knows, because she has said that she has seen this with her own eyes, it will weaken the dogs of war. This admission, coming from a public figure like her, will make it more difficult for the war-party on either side of the LOC to point their fingers only at people across the border.

    Nothing can strengthen the constituency of peace more at this crucial juncture, than a little honest and public introspection, on both sides. Let us hope that will occur. Barkha Dutt can set the ball rolling, if she chooses to. The buck, starts with her.'

    Dear Barkha Dutt: The Buck Stops Where?
    JANUARY 16, 2013
    by Shuddhabrata Sengupta

    Dear Barkha Dutt: The Buck Stops Where? Kafila

    Reference: http://www.thehoot.org/web/home/sear...p?sid=487&pg=2
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    Senior Member Hope's Avatar
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    Excellent read

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    Member Skull and Bones's Avatar
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    According to Pakistan's official stand, no Pak soldiers were involved in Kargil insurgency, it as Kashmiri millitants.

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    Senior Member Neo's Avatar
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    Coming from the horse's mouth...i wonder how the indian media react on his statement.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skull and Bones View Post
    According to Pakistan's official stand, no Pak soldiers were involved in Kargil insurgency, it as Kashmiri millitants.
    Yes, but India claims that regular Pakistani soldiers were involved and now you have a former Indian Admiral clearly stating that the Indian Army engaged in 'beheadings of Pakistani soldiers' along with an eyewitness account of beheadings by an Indian journalist.

    The point here is that regardless of what Pakistan claims about the involvement of its forces in Kargil, India believes that the people involved were regular Pakistan Army and despite that belief, Pakistani soldiers (according to India) were beheaded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    Coming from the horse's mouth...i wonder how the indian media react on his statement.
    Unfortunately, as the article in the OP points out, even Barkha Dutt chose to remain silent on the issue despite being given a clear opportunity to raise this issue, especially given her own experience during the Kargil conflict.

    Thank heavens for the internet - where we can archive these events and retain them for reference to remind future generations that India's hands are no cleaner than Pakistan's.
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    Administrator Aryan_B's Avatar
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    Its bad enough doing it but to admit it??? Whether Pakistan Army did or not is uncertain but Indian army did it.

    On another thread I stated that I suppose we would never really know in the fog of "war" but it was disgusting unprofessional and inhumane whoever did this. I think a number or at least one Indian member thanked my post. It now appears that we know that some in IA did indulge in this inhumane practice.
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    Senior Member Neo's Avatar
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    I think enough is said to know that India is just being hypocrite here. Beheadings have occured on both sides in the past. This should silence all indiand journalists and anchors who are portraying PA as barbaric terrorists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM View Post
    Yes, but India claims that regular Pakistani soldiers were involved and now you have a former Indian Admiral clearly stating that the Indian Army engaged in 'beheadings of Pakistani soldiers' along with an eyewitness account of beheadings by an Indian journalist.

    The point here is that regardless of what Pakistan claims about the involvement of its forces in Kargil, India believes that the people involved were regular Pakistan Army and despite that belief, Pakistani soldiers (according to India) were beheaded.
    Difference is between peacetime beheading while the Indian soldiers were captured and killed, and wartime beheading, hich might have happened in hand to hand combat, which was very common while clearing bunkers.

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    Senior Member Neo's Avatar
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    So you want to rewrite Geneva Convention rules?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skull and Bones View Post
    Difference is between peacetime beheading while the Indian soldiers were captured and killed, and wartime beheading, hich might have happened in hand to hand combat, which was very common while clearing bunkers.
    Even if your argument was valid (and I don't believe that it is), why couldn't the Indian soldier have also been beheaded (if indeed he was) during 'hand to hand combat' when the two leading soldiers were ambushed?

    And modern soldiers don't carry out raids and bunker clearing operations with swords, machetes or axes - at best these soldiers would have combat knives and even in 'hand to hand combat' 'severing a head' with a combat knife would require deliberate effort to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    So you want to rewrite Geneva Convention rules?
    Of course they do, now that they have been shown to be guilty of the same 'crimes' that their media and politicians were demanding war over.
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    Administrator Aryan_B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skull and Bones View Post
    Difference is between peacetime beheading while the Indian soldiers were captured and killed, and wartime beheading, hich might have happened in hand to hand combat, which was very common while clearing bunkers.
    Come on S&B mate you cannot condone this by any party anywhere
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    Member Skull and Bones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM View Post
    And modern soldiers don't carry out raids and bunker clearing operations with swords, machetes or axes - at best these soldiers would have combat knives and even in 'hand to hand combat' 'severing a head' with a combat knife would require deliberate effort to do so.
    You forgot Gurkha regiment with Khukri. It's more than enough for the job. And in close quarter battles, they throw away their guns charge with this khukris in hand.

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    Senior Member Neo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM View Post
    Of course they do, now that they have been shown to be guilty of the same 'crimes' that their media and politicians were demanding war over.
    Indian politicians know that they would be opening Pandoa's box by allowing UN investigation. So far we're being made to believe that its a matter of Indian souvreignity but we know better than that now.
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM View Post
    Even if your argument was valid (and I don't believe that it is), why couldn't the Indian soldier have also been beheaded (if indeed he was) during 'hand to hand combat' when the two leading soldiers were ambushed?
    Even Indian soldiers were beheaded during the Kargil war, there were several news reports during the wartime about mutilated bodies of Indian soldiers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skull and Bones View Post
    You forgot Gurkha regiment with Khukri. It's more than enough for the job. And in close quarter battles, they throw away their guns charge with this khukris in hand.

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    Even the Khukri would require deliberate 'sawing' to sever a head - In CQB one can understand throats being slashed, but severing of heads still points to a deliberate act beyond neutralizing the enemy in combat.

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    Member Skull and Bones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM View Post
    Even the Khukri would require deliberate 'sawing' to sever a head - In CQB one can understand throats being slashed, but severing of heads still points to a deliberate act beyond neutralizing the enemy in combat.
    You're underestimating the Khukri, it's swing is enough to behead someone. I have grown up and lived in a nepali majority area, and such instances are not rare.

    And yes, it's against geneva convention, but in a combat zone one cannot keep such facts in mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skull and Bones View Post
    And yes, it's against geneva convention, but in a combat zone one cannot keep such facts in mind.
    But then the same understanding should have been extended to Pakistan when blaming the PA for beheading the Indian soldier, ostensibly in combat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skull and Bones View Post
    You're underestimating the Khukri, it's swing is enough to behead someone. I have grown up and lived in a nepali majority area, and such instances are not rare.

    And yes, it's against geneva convention, but in a combat zone one cannot keep such facts in mind.
    Kashmir has been a combat zone eversince the partition. So what is the fuss about PA alledgely beheading the enemy?
    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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