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Thread: Indian Admiral Admits India beheaded Pakistani Soldiers

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  1. #41
    Retired AgNoStIc MuSliM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade View Post
    The Admiral is not telling the truth.
    It is not just the admiral - the first hand account posted by a journalist covering the Kargil conflict supports the Admiral's claim.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Felix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade View Post
    My post was in the context of 'India beheading a Pakistani soldier' and not about the recent issue. My question was if such beheading was done by Indian forces why did not Pakistan raised the issue. I don't recall such issue being raised by Pakistan in the past
    Lets concentrate on the topic of the thread. The topic is about your respected and prominant general confirming that your nation has carried out beheadings by your army. A disgusting proposition. Understandibly something which all good Indians would say it didnt happen.
    India should not have carried out these disgraceful acts. They ought to behavr themselves

  3. #43
    Senior Member Dash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade View Post
    My post was in the context of 'India beheading a Pakistani soldier' and not about the recent issue. My question was if such beheading was done by Indian forces why did not Pakistan raised the issue. I don't recall such issue being raised by Pakistan in the past
    There was no requirement of raising any such issue with India as India traditionally denies even a ceasefire violation. Why would anyone waste time with a country as intransigent as India.

    I remember, India fired nerve gas or some other gas filled artillery shells in Kashmir and when the matter was raised with Indians, they out-rightly denied it.

    Though, I now think that Pakistan should also follow the Indian path and should start raising all such issues at the international fora. I don't know why our Foreign Office guys don't do this and every time gets betrayed by the Indians.

    Let the world know the true face of India, instead of looking at peace as a dividend.

  4. #44
    Member Jade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM View Post
    It is not just the admiral - the first hand account posted by a journalist covering the Kargil conflict supports the Admiral's claim.
    If indeed it it done, I condemn it to the fullest.
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  5. #45
    Member Irfan Baloch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    Coming from the horse's mouth...i wonder how the indian media react on his statement.
    they react to it with pride and justification of teaching Pakistan a lesson
    in the same breath though they will condemn the same act as inhumane and barbaric if its alleged on Pakistan army
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    Last edited by Irfan Baloch; 21st January 2013 at 12:57.

  6. #46
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    @third eye @Jade @Ticker
    Some more criticizm, by another Indian journalist, of the approach taken by the Indian media in ignoring the fact that Indian soldiers have engaged in beheadings, as well as accounts of the beheadings committed by Indian soldiers:


    The lines of control : Indian Soldiers Involved in Beheading


    Karan Thapar
    January 19, 2013

    The beheading of an Indian soldier on the LoC and the mutilation of another were undoubtedly unacceptable and unpardonable. This was barbaric behaviour. The anger and revulsion it’s provoked is understandable. There’s no denying that. However, there’s one question we need to ask but mainly failed to raise. Have we ever been guilty of similar behaviour ourselves?

    From what I can tell the answer seems to be yes. On the 10th, The Hindu reported that last year, during a skirmish at Karnah, “Indian Special Forces responded by attacking a Pakistani forward post, killing several soldiers, and by the account of one military official which The Hindu could not corroborate independently, beheaded two.”

    What makes this claim credible is that it’s reported by military sources who not only ought to know but would not denigrate the reputation of Indian soldiers.

    Alas, there’s more evidence. This time from eye-witnesses.

    In her ‘Confessions of a War Reporter’, published in June 2001 by Himal, a well-known Nepalese magazine, Barkha Dutt recounted how she witnessed a decapitated Pakistani soldier’s head at Kargil. This is what she wrote:
    “I had to look three times to make sure I was seeing right … “Look again,” said the army colonel, in a tone that betrayed suppressed excitement. This time, I finally saw. It was a head, the disembodied face of a slain soldier nailed onto a tree. “The boys got it as a gift for the brigade,” said the colonel, softly, but proudly.”

    Harinder Baweja, the editor (Investigation) of this paper, witnessed something similar. This is the account from her book A Soldier’s Diary, Kargil — The Inside Story:
    “The experiences of 18 Garhwal show another side of the war … one of them took out his knife and slit the head of a Pakistani soldier in one stroke. The head was sent to Brigade Headquarters at Drass and pinned to a tree trunk … the enemy head, a grisly trophy, became an exhibition piece. Major General Puri came down from Mughalpura to see it. Other officers dropped in to Brigade Headquarters to take a look. So did some journalists … it was there pinned on the tree for anyone who could bear to look at it.”

    So is this proof that Indian soldiers, both in the recent past and during Kargil, have done to Pakistanis what they did to our jawans last week? The Hindu report is clearly not proof.

    On the other hand, what Barkha and Harinder saw seems like it. They are eye-witnesses. They’re highly regarded journalists. They have a reputation for telling the truth. More importantly, they have no reason to lie.

    However, my intention is not to establish moral equivalence between Indian and Pakistani soldiers, although some might come to that conclusion. It’s to ask why did the media, other than The Hindu, not point this out? You can’t argue it was irrelevant information. More importantly, it would have put a different complexion on the decapitation of our soldiers. And, certainly, it would have tempered the furious discussions on television.

    As journalists we owe our audience not just the truth but both sides of it when that’s pertinent. To not be evenhanded is to leave them half-informed.

    In this instance, we whipped up passions when we should have helped audiences realise the LoC is a tough place, where brutal actions often happen and both sides retaliate in equally gruesome ways.

    When tempers cool and time lends perspective, our audience won’t forgive us for half-truths.

    The lines of control - Hindustan Times
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  7. #47
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    And another account from a third journalist, Sankarshan Thakur:

    We saw only one side of the war and most stories we reported were stories told to us by Indian soldiers. A lot of what the jawans had to say mismatched with what the defence establishment thought. Accounts of how well-entrenched the intruders were, for instance; that was anathema to the government because it was handy proof it had let its guard down. Accounts, also, of how our soldiers treated intruders when they could lay their hands on them. New Delhi made quite a show of mutilation of some of its captured soldiers by Pakistanis but much the same was happening on this side. Troops of the Naga and Jat regiments told us quite plainly they had killed a few intruders they had captured alive in the heights above Drass. “It was rage, just rage,” one Naga soldier said, “They killed many of our mates, we were angry. When we got them, we butchered them.” As and when they brought bodies of intruders back from the heights, the tied them with ropes and dragged them down. “We had enough load to carry as it was, who was going to bother carrying their bodies? Dragging them down was a favour.” There was no sense of guilt or remorse there, just plain retelling; it was as if a fire of emotion had cleansed the act of murder.

    Kargil: One Side of a Bleeding Fence Sankarshan Thakur

  8. #48
    Senior Member Wajid47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM View Post
    And another account from a third journalist, Sankarshan Thakur:

    We saw only one side of the war and most stories we reported were stories told to us by Indian soldiers. A lot of what the jawans had to say mismatched with what the defence establishment thought. Accounts of how well-entrenched the intruders were, for instance; that was anathema to the government because it was handy proof it had let its guard down. Accounts, also, of how our soldiers treated intruders when they could lay their hands on them. New Delhi made quite a show of mutilation of some of its captured soldiers by Pakistanis but much the same was happening on this side. Troops of the Naga and Jat regiments told us quite plainly they had killed a few intruders they had captured alive in the heights above Drass. “It was rage, just rage,” one Naga soldier said, “They killed many of our mates, we were angry. When we got them, we butchered them.” As and when they brought bodies of intruders back from the heights, the tied them with ropes and dragged them down. “We had enough load to carry as it was, who was going to bother carrying their bodies? Dragging them down was a favour.” There was no sense of guilt or remorse there, just plain retelling; it was as if a fire of emotion had cleansed the act of murder.

    Kargil: One Side of a Bleeding Fence Sankarshan Thakur
    I know during war a lot happens but behaviour like this outrageous and should have been left in the stone age. Disgraceful behaviour from anyone

  9. #49
    Senior Member Dash's Avatar
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    [MENTION=67]AgNoStIc MuSliM[/MENTION]

    I think India has exposed itself and has hurt itself much more at the international fora by creating the hype as it did. India's habit of presenting itself as a victim all the time has come to fore as a falsehood.

    I think they have fallen in the same ditch that they dug for others.

  10. #50
    Senior Member ajtr's Avatar
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    Admiral Ramdas' daughter is married to a pakistani.that explains his Dharma Sankat (the Moral Ambiguity) in situations like this not only him but many others like him who have relations on bot side of the wagha faces same moral ambiguity.....
    Main tere naseeb ki barish nahi Jo tujh pe baras jaon
    Tujhe taqdeer badalni hogi mujhe panay ke liye....!!!!

    मैं तेरे नसीब की बारिश नहीं जो तुझ पे बरस जाऊं,
    तुझे तकदीर बदलनी होगी मुझे पाने के लिए ....!!!!

    'میں تیرے نصیب کی بارش نہیں جو تجھ پہ برس جاؤں
    تجھے تقدیر بدلنی ہوگی مجھے پانے کے لئے

    "I'm not the rain of your fortune that i'll fall on you.You've to change your fate in order to get me."

  11. #51
    Senior Member Felix's Avatar
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    But this whole episode leaves us all feeling the futility and depravity and inhumane situation we find ourselves in

  12. #52
    Senior Member Sinbad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajtr View Post
    Admiral Ramdas' daughter is married to a pakistani.that explains his Dharma Sankat (the Moral Ambiguity) in situations like this not only him but many others like him who have relations on bot side of the wagha faces same moral ambiguity.....
    This shouldnt cloud his judgement.
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  13. #53
    Senior Member Dash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajtr View Post
    Admiral Ramdas' daughter is married to a pakistani.that explains his Dharma Sankat (the Moral Ambiguity) in situations like this not only him but many others like him who have relations on bot side of the wagha faces same moral ambiguity.....
    Speaking the truth is exactly opposite of being morally ambiguous.

  14. #54
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    @Third eye @Jade @Ticker

    Some members raised questions about the lack of any protests from Pakistan on any such alleged acts by India - please see the following news story in the BBC (2002). This article and the previous ones quoting Indian journalists and military officials as confirming Indian Army practices of beheadings and mutilation clearly illustrate the fact that the Indian Army is not without blame when it comes to these kinds of incidents.

    Pakistani soldier 'tortured to death'

    A million men are still deployed along the frontlines
    Pakistan has accused India of torturing and killing one its border guards earlier this week in an incident along their border.

    From the autopsy, it has been ascertained that he was brutally murdered

    Pakistani spokesman Rashid Qureshi
    Government spokesman General Rashid Qureshi said the soldier was captured after straying into no-man's land.

    Journalists in Islamabad were shown a video of a body that had been mutilated, and were told that the autopsy showed signs of torture.

    General Qureshi said the soldier was then shot dead at point-blank range.

    The row came as EU leaders issued a fresh appeal to both countries to do more to defuse tensions between them, which have led to a million or so men being deployed along the border.

    Torture allegation

    The Pakistanis named the soldier as Corporal Maqsood.

    They said he had gone into no-man's land to retrieve some camels.

    "It is evident from the condition of the mutilated body that the deceased was subjected to intense torture by burning his skin with cigarette butts, shooting him in the leg and physical beating before he was killed," said General Qureshi.

    He warned that such incidents could "snowball" as it could prove difficult to control the response of the soldiers.

    Indian denial

    India has denied the torture allegation, saying it is "totally incorrect".

    A defence ministry spokesman said the Pakistani soldier had been killed in an exchange of fire after crossing the border in order to infiltrate Indian territory.

    The Indian spokesman said that one of their officers had also been killed in the exchange of fire.

    The incident was said to have taken place three days ago along the border between Pakistan's Punjab province and the Indian state of Rajasthan.

    The body of the dead Pakistani soldier was handed back the next day.

    BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | Pakistani soldier 'tortured to death'
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  15. #55
    Administrator Aryan_B's Avatar
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    Thats one way of putting it lols

  16. #56
    Senior Member Express's Avatar
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    Indian are even at the point of calling the admiral a liar than believing their army is able of committing such atrocities. Deal with it. It happened and its really poor
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  17. #57
    Member Irfan Baloch's Avatar
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    who has seen this interview?



    points to note

    Gen Musharraf maintained
    -Pak army is not stupid to open a new war front with India while engaged with Taliban & BLA
    -Pak army wont have returned the bodies of dead Indians during Kargil war if they were mutilated instead they would have been secretly buried and claimed to be never found. why give Indians a propaganda feast?
    -India has the proven history of supporting & training insurgencies in East Pakistan & Balochistan so blaming Pakistan (only) for Kashmiri insurgency is wrong.

    back then when India blamed Pakistan over mutilating the bodies of the Indian soldiers then Pakistan decided to use International Red Cross to for the exchange to counter such allegations but as usual India refused the third party intervention
    and then its army itself mutilated the Pakistani dead as a revenge and justified it as a pride & settling the score.

    like last time so much spam and garbage has been written and spoken over the print and electronic media that the facts are forgotten. same lot of accusations, discussions and analysis will be used as proof in the future just like it was done in the past and show the world that Pakistanis did it again. argument/ accusation from the same source at different times quoting each other like a perpetual circular reference with no intention of finding the facts but maligning Pakistan.

    as usual blames and Allegations will be made but international mediation or fact finding by third party/ UN military observers will be rejected (avoiding the internationalisation of Kashmir is lame because if Pakistan can be proven wrong by the third party then whats better than that?) it only suggests that its only bull crap.

    Musharraf tried to explain how the border war is fought and how its impossible to cross border, behead and come back safely when a million strong Indian army is deployed on the border and what actually happens (artillery and sniper fire) but the host kept up the rhetoric.

    if I was Indian who had lost a loved one in this fight I would have grabbed the collar of the Indian Military/ civilian leadership and demanded them to go to International court of justice and UN to find the facts and prove that Pakistan had committed the crime and would have refused to accept the Indian sensitivity over keeping Kashmir in-house. but since I am not an Indian and the Indian families are content with the official Indian narrative about accusing Pakistan then fine.

    but hopefully one day some Indians decide that their dead are more important than this Indian shyness over Kashmir issue, so that the truth comes out once and for all. either Pakistan will be proven at fault and will lose its Kashmir case forever (best outcome for Indian state) or Indian state wont be able to play politics over the dead soldiers (good for other Indian families).
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    Last edited by Irfan Baloch; 22nd January 2013 at 17:04.

  18. #58
    Member Irfan Baloch's Avatar
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    recall the press conference of Surjeet Singh with Indian media once he crossed the border into India and he said that he was treated very well by Pakistanis and he is telling the truth and without any fear because he is among friends now
    he was saying the same thing at the handover and he was stopped by the Indians by putting sweet in his mouth lol



    listen from 0:50

    long live this man of honour and truth.

    Indians in Pakistani jails are well looked after!!!
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  19. #59
    Senior Member Dash's Avatar
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    Even Dr. Kalia, Capt Saurab Kalian's father had moved the Indian Supreme Court last year to ask Indian government to raise the issue of his son's alleged torture incident at the International Court of Justice in The Hague. The Indian government has so far not accepted his plea knowing fully well that their accusations against Pakistani alleged torture would be proved wrong if they go to an international court.

    And Musharraf is very right in saying that if Pakistan had tortured any one, why would return the tortured bodies and would have buried them instead.
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  20. #60
    Senior Member Sinbad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ticker View Post
    Even Dr. Kalia, Capt Saurab Kalian's father had moved the Indian Supreme Court last year to ask Indian government to raise the issue of his son's alleged torture incident at the International Court of Justice in The Hague. The Indian government has so far not accepted his plea knowing fully well that their accusations against Pakistani alleged torture would be proved wrong if they go to an international court.

    And Musharraf is very right in saying that if Pakistan had tortured any one, why would return the tortured bodies and would have buried them instead.
    Musharraf has the ability of sorting the Indian press....
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